Carol:
Hello, hello, and welcome to the People-Forward Leadership™ Podcast. I am so excited to have a catalyst and trailblazer as my guest today on the podcast. Debra Johnson made history in 2020 as the first woman to become general manager and CEO of Denver's Regional Transportation District, better known as RTD. She now oversees a $1.2 billion operation spanning more than 140 buses and rail lines across 2300 plus square miles, serving nearly 3 million residents every day.
But before Denver, Debra spent two decades in senior roles from Long Beach Transit to the Bay Area and Washington D.C., carving out a reputation for equity minded people, centric leadership that turns strategy into service.
Debra, I want to welcome you so much to the podcast. Thank you so much for being here.
Debra:
Thank you very much for having me. It is my esteemed pleasure to be able to engage with you this afternoon.
Carol:
Thank you. So I want to just get started in asking what got you into transit.
Debra:
Like many of my colleagues around the country, I fell into it, but it was something that I soon found that was innate within. So I launched into public transport by virtue of deciding not to continue on with law school. I realized some time ago when I was trying to figure out what I was doing after undergrad, a lot of my friends were going on to law school. So I was like, oh, I could do that too.
I had the opportunity to be accepted into a program that's still in existence today, the Council for Legal Educational Opportunity, called CLEO, and I was able to do a six week stint with CLEO, and at the time it was what then was Bull Hall of the University of California Berkeley, that's now Berkeley Law. And going through that program, I quickly realized that I was more enamored with public policy and administration., Than I was with other aspects of what a typical first year law student would encounter in their matriculation process with legal studies.
And so it just so happened I was dating a guy that was in the engineering program at Cal, and I'm thinking, I got to quickly pivot. What am I going to do now? And so his mentor type big sister was working in the engineering department and left Cal to go work at an architectural and engineering firm. They had received a major capital project that was with the California Department of Transportation, I.E. Caltrans, where they were looking to add a high occupancy vehicle lane along the I-80 corridor. This sort of comes on the heels of the Loma Prieta earthquake, and there was a need to basically resurrect ferry service in the Bay Area after the Bay Bridge had fallen on October 17th, 1989 during the course of the World Series when the Giants and the A's were playing.
So with that as a backdrop, I basically took a position where I was responsible for community outreach and liaising with the different transit agencies and local municipalities. That basically gave me the opportunity to really get a better understanding with the mechanisms as it related to the Bay Area transit agencies in particular. Because the whole notion behind the high occupancy vehicle lanes was to have direct access into BART stations, so when people were commuting. And so that's how I fell into it. And then moreover, growing up in Fresno, California, I took the bus. I'm talking with you today because I'm a proud user of transit. Not only am I a nationally recognized practitioner, I am a product of public transport and recognize that it is the great societal equalizer.
Carol:
I love that. Wow, what a journey. It's interesting. There's so many people I know who either went to law school or started and decided that wasn't the path. I always tell people, had I known something like the work that I do now existed back in the late '80s when I started law school, I would've done something very different as well. But I love how that journey brought you into this world and doing this work.
So leader awareness is a starting point of our People-Forward Leadership Framework. And since stepping in as RTD's first female CEO, what's the single biggest insight that you've gained about your own leadership style and how has that self-awareness shifted the way you guide your leadership team, your strategic planning and the work that you're doing over there at RTD?
Debra:
I think if anything, just by virtue of being empathetic, I recognize that we are all imperfectly perfect human beings. And oftentimes we rush to judgment about what we believe is happening. If anything, we have to recognize other people's pain points. And it's in alignment with design thinking.
First and foremost, as human beings, we always want to solve a problem, but we need to step back and recognize what those pain points are for others with whom we engage, whom we're leading, whom we're teammates with. And recognize that we need to understand their reality, and then talk about it in the sense of problem solving. Doing that together, identifying a problem, then you can ideate around that collectively. And for me, being this individual, especially when I started this position in the height of the pandemic, there was so much happening in the country. Civil unrest associated with racial injustices, the murder of George Floyd. We had coupled with that, the insurrection of United States government in reference to not an easy transition of power from one administration to the next.
And I was just so fatigued when I was coming into the office and I would talk to people, I understand that we're not going to disrobe whatever is more or less holding us back and being able to showcase that I am a true person in the people business, I'm a person first. That basically is dealing with the myriad of issues and showcasing that I'm a human being. Not some title that I carry by virtue of the job that I hold, but I am somebody who really truly understands that we are people in the people business. And once we have that collective understanding, we can be a lot more engaged and be advocates for others and be thorough problem solvers with the assistance of others.
Carol:
I love that. That really leaning into, and you're right, there was so much unrest. There's been so much, we've turned so much into identifying our own emotional wellbeing, our own, how we relate to each other, how we are talking with each other, how we are understanding each other, how we're being in space with each other. That has come up since the pandemic that happened. And I love how you're talking about empathy as a way of just really understanding others' reality and showing up as a human and not a title. I really love that. And so I'm curious, how has that translated into how you lead your team and are developing that level of empathetic leadership within your own senior leadership team?
Debra:
So I think what's critically important is that when I first got to the agency, there were different people in different positions. And I always give individuals the benefit of the doubt. I think it's incredibly important recognizing that we weren't all reared in the same household, there's commonalities. What is your core values? Because that's incredibly important when you're trying to get people to align around a vision when you're trying to ensure that they could be part of the mission of your agency in which you're leading.
And so with that as a backdrop, recognizing that when I'm looking for leaders, I want to ensure that they're of the same ilk relative to being one that can engage and have conversations and not looking at somebody in 1,000 plus organization from the sense of what your employee ID number, but looking at somebody for who they are. So if I'm engaging with you, Carol, you're actually Carol Parker Walsh, not employee number X0955. And so that's incredibly important, understanding who we are. Because, as I said, we are all imperfectly perfect individuals and so when we come together recognizing that we are an economic driver for the metropolitan region, we are interwoven in the fabrics of the communities that we serve. So while I may be doing my day job over here, I also could be coaching my child's little league team. Being involved in different aspects.
So approaching it with a humanistic lens and showcasing that we're people and that they're not rungs on a ladder in reference to I am superior to you by virtue of the position that I hold. And come together and can talk about the aspects of what it is that motivates one individual, you're more inclined to create an environment where somebody wants to put forward what their actual contributions are because they can see themselves a part of the greater mission of the organization. They can see themselves as being a contributor in going after that vision, what this agency aspires to be. And just ensuring that they know where they fit collectively into the greater organization.
Carol:
Yeah. How has that fueled the initiative to be the employer choice for RTD? I mean, I could see if you're teaching your people or espousing this value of really humanistic leadership and connectivity with the community and seeing everyone as individually that people feel seen and feel valued within the organization. So how has that been fueling that initiative to be the employer of choice?
Debra:
Well, first and foremost, I have to understand, and my team collectively has to understand how employees are feeling. So for me, it's very important that I garner and understanding of their opinions, perceptions, and attitudes, leveraging employee surveys. But not only from that vantage point, going out into the divisions, meeting people where they are. We deliver an incredibly important public service and it doesn't fit the confines of what used to be traditional business hours. You have people that may be coming to work at nine o'clock in the evening, it's showing up and showing out where they can see you, and they understand that they are valued. And providing the tools and resources that are needed relative to ensuring that they can do their job to the best of their ability.
And so as we talk about what that is, it's leveraging that input that's received, whether it's good, bad or indifferent, I really don't care who's saying what. If there are certain themes, I'm going to lean into it. So utilizing the employee survey as the example, keeping in mind that if a theme emerges that says that I don't know what's happening in the agency, there's not enough communication. We have leveraged what we've called employee ownership task forces and engage members of the organization across different disciplines. So you can have a frontline bus operator or a light rail operator or a commuter rail conductor engaging with one of our associate general counsel, I.E. an attorney, somebody in contract management who are working on solutions.
It's getting back to that whole notion of what are those pain points and what can we do. Because I may have the opportunity to be the coach of this team, but there's always going to be a captain of the team. There's always going to be that most valuable player. There's always going to be other teammates that can get off the bench that can step into the game. And so recognizing what those aspects are, we all can lean in and clearly see that we are better together in reference to solving whatever problems there are because there're going to be many of them, and we can't just do that in a unilateral fashion.
Carol:
Yeah. How are you able to do that? I'm sure some people... Because most transit agencies have a union environment embedded within them. So for people who are thinking, wow, how are you doing that in that type of environment without having any backlash or issue for any kind of collective bargaining unit that you have there. How are you negotiating that?
Debra:
Yeah, so it's intentional because it's done through anonymity. It doesn't matter who says what. I want to ensure that if there's current themes, what that may be. And in order, considering that we have with our workforce, we have just under 4,000 employees, it's intentional the time of year in which we do do surveys. The frontline employees do their work shifts selection three times a year, and we will ensure that we do our employee engagement during the times in which they are doing their shift selection because they're coming into the operating facilities to take care of that.
So we just did one recently in April. And basically what it is, is providing the tools and resources disseminating people out into the division where we have the opportunity to engage. People can do the survey in a paper format, on a tablet, however they feel most comfortable in reference to utilizing those resources. And none of this is looked at being punitive. Step into your truth, be your own authentic self. I want to know what it is that I can do as the leader of the organization to make this an optimal work environment. And recognizing when we garner that feedback that we're actually going to do something with it, relaying those survey results.
So keeping in mind that they will clearly see that their voices aren't going unheard and communicating that out about what the next steps are and how they might be involved. Because either you're going to be a part of the problem or part of the solution, and hence that's why the employee ownership task forces are very important.
Carol:
Yeah. That level of transparency and openness, I'm sure goes a long way toward building that psychological safety within your agency where people are seeing there's some trust, it's building trust in community and the belief that their thoughts and opinions matter. Which I'm sure go a long way toward their ability to show up and do their best possible work.
Debra:
Yes, totally. And listen, let me be very transparent. When we started this, there was trepidation and angst. Why do they want to know this? And it was intentional on my part that, hey, names aren't included. And doing it in such a way where there're drop lock boxes and things of the, if people are doing papers, so nobody thinks that their supervisor could get in and read whatever it is if they're going to be forthright because this is for the betterment of the agency as a whole, not about one individual that may be a bad actor.
Carol:
Yeah. So your strategic plan's People Power initiative calls for three specialized supervisor manager training modules by June 2025. I'm curious, what early wins have you seen from these modules in terms of on-time performance or cross-functional collaboration within the organization?
Debra:
So just to give some more context. So People Power is one of our initiatives that's enveloped into our strategic plan. And quite naturally, we needed to ensure that we have the people that comprise the agency are resource with the tools and the knowledge that are needed to perform at their best. And so keeping in mind that in an organization that is comprised of a lot of represented employees and things of the like when you think about promotive opportunities, you have people coming out of a represented environment transitioning into a non-represented environment, and keeping in mind that we are all people and we all have a job to do.
So one thing that was clearly apparent is that individuals weren't equipped with the resources, be it the softer side of things relative to interpersonal skills and how one would engage with somebody that had basically been promoted to a position whereby they were previously one of the team members in which they're now overseeing. We needed to ensure that we were working with individuals in a way that provided them the requisite skills in which they could be successful, and also to coach and motivate and inspire others on their staff to do their ultimate best. And so this basically came to fruition through employee surveys, through engagements that I had with individuals, and it took some time.
I really applaud our chief people officer and our director of learning and development leaning into the moment and creating modules that are incredibly important, recognizing the basic elements of that. And more specifically, what we use here is a cognitive tool and a behavioral assessment that enables individuals to know that you're going to work with people in a different fashion because they may have different skillsets, they may approach things through a different lens.
So working with them in an environment where they can garner a better understanding that I may need to approach Jim with a different outlook in reference to giving him smaller pieces of work and doing a check-in more regularly. Whereas with Michelle, I could basically outline the expectations, we have an agreement, and then basically do a check-in on a bi-weekly basis. Those are the types of elements that we have leveraged. And the result, people feel more confident.
What we saw with the most recent employee survey results that individuals clearly saw how they tied into the mission, vision, and values of the organization. Individuals commented about, they saw that their supervisors were invested in their success. So those are the type of data points that we have that were garnered through the survey as we move forward. And also sort of the pulse checks that were done after each of the modules that were comprised of like six. As we move forward in transitioning into the next phase of that.
Carol:
Within your People Power work that you're doing, there's also an emphasis around apprenticeship and internship pathways. Is that utilized to really support that next generation of leadership within the organization?
Debra:
So I'll speak to their apprenticeship. One thing that's really interesting with the agency, with the Regional Transportation District, we're the only intermodal transit agency in the entire state of Colorado. There's others that provide services, but here in the metro region... And the reason why I call that out specifically, we're the only ones operating light rail and commuter rail in the state. So where would our talent pool rest? And so it's incumbent upon us that we're developing, said, talent pool. Hence, working in partnership with our union partners and developing this apprenticeship program, being intentional about how we're going about it, getting state sponsorship and recognition in reference to how we're setting up this apprenticeship program. And it's primarily focused on right now in the beginning phases of looking at our mechanics and technicians as we move forward. That's incredibly important.
As it relates to our internship program, introducing those in younger generations about the myriad of opportunities that are within a transit agency. Because oftentimes when people think of a transit agency they may see the buses and trains moving about these different geographic areas, but have no understanding that, oh my gosh, we have individuals within the organization whereby we have a physical therapist position, we have individuals that are doing contract negotiations. We have individuals that are chief financial officer, budget analysts, all of these different elements of which the average person may not be aware of just by virtue of not being engage in the whole notion of how you bring forward transit services and how you deliver it.
Carol:
So it sounds like in a lot of the work that you're doing, you're going beyond just formal training and that you're creating opportunities for peer to peer learning engagement. You're creating opportunities for micro learning engagements to be able to learn in the moment or learn in real time. How is this helping employees to really self-diagnose their own gaps within their own development and being able to identify that for their ability to grow within the organization?
Debra:
Well, thank you so much for that question. It's something that we've looked at and we've called it, instead of the growth ladder, more or less growth constellations. Somebody could come in here as an individual that's cleaning rail cars and have the opportunity to do a myriad of other things.
And so another important piece of this I would share is we have a program where we have money set aside for professional development. We are engaging with some local community colleges and universities in the area, and we have allocated monies within our operating budget for those individuals. So there's opportunity not only to have training here and then the micro learning programs that we basically have that could give you a certification. That's what we're working towards within RTD. So if you're interested in project management, and you may go through a program here first and then basically go on to the Project Management Institute and become a certified project manager professional. Those types of elements, now that's in the works, that's the next generation. So I want to manage expectations before my colleagues are like, what program is that? But that's the next piece of it as we move forward.
But garnering a better understanding. And just in the next couple of weeks, we're having a graduation ceremony for individuals that have leveraged our professional development program funds that are finishing obtaining their degree, be it their bachelor's degree or be it their master's degree. And this will be the first one. And I'm so excited about that. So we could rally around our colleagues and celebrate their success because their success is our success, that's the agency success, that's the community success when we have leaders that are dedicated to the whole notion behind public transportation and its critical importance in the communities that we serve.
Carol:
Yeah, for sure. It's exciting to hear all of the amazing initiatives and programs that you are creating to really develop leaders, develop next generation, to support the employees, to really position the organization as an employer of choice.
I'm curious. A lot of times, or I should say sometimes I hear the struggle with investing in that type of work because there's the results in the bottom line that we have to hit. And so we need to focus on that, and if we can get to the leadership stuff, we can get to it. And I know that the board set a goal for a 5% lift over year over year in terms of actual support that you're doing within the community in terms of getting more ridership and things of that nature. How is that translating into you having those success metrics that the board has given you in terms of being successful in some of the outcomes that you have in your strategic goals?
Debra:
Yeah, so I would say first and foremost, as we talk about the goals, when those were set that was in the height of the pandemic, the board adopted those in August of 2021. With hindsight being 20... What am I trying to say?
Carol:
Hindsight being 20/20.
Debra:
Hindsight being 20/20 we know what we now didn't know at the time. And the reason I preface that is I was coming into the organization and I clearly knew that we needed to have that north star, and that was all garnered through my engagement with employees, the union, elected officials, and the board in and of itself.
And the reason I share that is where we were. There's no way we're going to get 5% year over year moving where we were in the height of the pandemic. But with that as a backdrop, we have made notable success. And I'm so excited about that because as we talk about ridership, that's an output. All these different elements that you just asked me about are the inputs that would yield that.
So quite naturally, when you think about how you deliver public transportation, it's labor intensive. You could look at any transit agency within the United States, and more than likely three quarters of their budget is going to be geared toward labor. It's people moving people. And what's critically important, you can't do that in absence of people and most transit agencies around the country, and most entities be it public, private, nonprofit, were having a difficult time in retaining their people. And so keeping in mind these programs are intentional because we have to invest in the talent. We have to ensure that we're creating a talent pool and stimulating individuals so they could be the thought leaders and engage on how we're moving forward as a whole.
So with that as a backdrop, I just saw yesterday my chief people officer, we were looking at our retention efforts, and we are now, as it relates to year over year, we have a retention rate at 82%. Back in 2021, looking at it year over year from 2021 to 2022, we were at 70%. 2022 to 2023 we were at 77%. And so 2023 to 2024 we're at 74%. So all of these things, you can't right a ship overnight. And so the work that we started doing in the beginning of 2021, we are now seeing the returns on these major investments.
Carol:
Yes, that is phenomenal. And you're right, the investment in people is absolutely showing in them staying. And when you have people who are there and committed to their work, they're going to do their best possible work. So ridership is going to increase and the community is going to have a better experience with the transit system. I think that's phenomenal.
As I listen to you, ongoing reflection is a core practice that we instill in the People Forward Leadership methodology. Coaching, self-reflection, seeing what you've done in the past, reflecting on that and improving it and layering up on that. And it sounds like that's definitely something that you're engaged in as a leader and are fostering that within the organization. How is that helping the organization continue to move forward by engaging in this kind of ability to stay aware and reflective of what's worked? What do we need to course correct? Are we moving in the right direction to keep those numbers at the way they are and continue to rise?
Debra:
I think what's incredibly important is recognizing that we always can be a better version of ourselves. And I say this from the vantage point that I work on myself intentionally because I want to be the best that I can for the people with whom I work and engage. And I basically have a coach and I engage. And when people are like, you have a coach, and I'm like, when Simone Biles won her first gold medal do you think she fired her coach? We always want to improve as we go forward. And I'm an individual that recognizes that I have shortcomings. I can have a day where I may not be at my best because there could be extenuating circumstances that I'm dealing with outside of the realms of the work environment, and I need to be here and I need to be able to give others grace.
And I think what that boils down to as it relates to where we sit here at this agency recognizing our values that we have, we have to ensure that we are being passionate about what we're doing. We have to be respectful. We have to have a sense of ownership, embracing diversity. And when I say diversity, it's not just in people, but it's thought and experience. It's being collaborative. All of these things are incredibly important because we have to show up for others. There are people relying on us. Our public transportation services that we provide may be the difference between somebody being unhoused versus being housed. Because when we look at our schedule, that's the commitment that we make to the riding public saying, we're going to be there when we want to be there. So if in fact we don't show up on time and somebody misses clocking in and somebody's living paycheck to paycheck, those are dire circumstances.
And so when we see the importance of what we do collectively and recognize that we have to hone in and step back and look at our daily pullout rate, are people hitting their time points, what might we do to increase reliability investing in our infrastructure? All of these inputs yield the output, which is increasing those that want to utilize transit by the simple fact that it is an economic driver and entices people to want to come to the area when they can fly into the world's six busiest airport and get to downtown Denver via commuter rail line that we operate, which is the A Line.
Seeing all those connectivities and recognizing that we have to step back to figure out, okay, well, what happened with service delivery last week? How might we adjust the schedule when we do our next service change? All of that is intertwined because we as a agency are interwoven into the fabrics of the community that we serve.
Carol:
That's incredible. That's incredible. Wow. You've given the listeners a lot to take in. I think it's been phenomenal. I thank you for pulling back the curtain on how RTD is turning people forward leadership into ridership gains, how it's advancing and developing leaders within your organization, how it's shifting mindsets and allowing you all truly to become an employer of choice, that I could see why you're definitely on that pathway.
Debra:
Well, thank you for that. I really appreciate it. It takes the team effort. It takes people leaning in. It takes people being vulnerable because you have to be vulnerable in order to have courage because you don't know what's on the other side. So I appreciate that, Carol. Thank you.
Carol:
Yeah. Well, and I definitely, you have so many takeaways that hopefully people picked up as they were listening around empathetic leadership, about listening and learning, about using cognitive tools to gain that deeper self-awareness, around taking a human-centered approach and seeing people as people and not as titles, around getting feedback so that you can engage with that feedback and make things better and different for the people who are serving your community through the work that they're doing. Turning teams into leadership labs, connecting culture to customer input. I mean, there's so many nuggets that you share today and a lot of takeaways that people can have if they listen to this. So thank you again.
Debra:
Oh, you're quite welcome. I appreciated the opportunity to share.
Carol:
Absolutely. Well, small moves, big ripple effects for sure. I want to thank you all for joining me today and remember, keep leading people forward and I'll see you next time.
