Carol:
Welcome, welcome to the People Forward Leadership Podcast, where we explore what it really takes to build workplaces where people and performance thrive. And today I am so honored to introduce another People Forward catalyst, James Jones.
Now James is the founder and lead executive consultant of the JKT Financial Group and president of JKT Packaging Solutions, where he has negotiated ... Catch this over a hundred million in global packaging contracts. And before launching his companies, he spent two decades in manufacturing leadership, starting as a lead engineer at Boeing, sharpening his continuous improvement lens at Smurfit Stone and steering an 80,000 ton corrugated plant as president of TexCorr and even running high velocity operations at Amazon. And along the way, he built a reputation for weaving lean manufacturing with a deep respect for the people who make the systems run. Now outside the C-suite, James serves on the boards of Food Share of Ventura County and Bpeace lending, his expertise to fight food insecurity and to help entrepreneurs in conflict-torn regions create jobs and stability another testament to his people forward philosophy. James, I want to thank you for being here and welcome to the show.
James:
Thank you very much, and thank you for pumping my ego up that intro. My goodness. Thank you.
Carol:
Well, it's all you. It's just a mirror. So thank you so much for being here. So I want to start with your journey. So after two decades of running operations and Boeing and Amazon and other places, what convinced you to step out on your own and launch your companies?
James:
Couple things. One, it was a buildup and then one, as things build up, there's always that one catalyst thing and that happens. I have never been at a job where I wasn't a manager. The first job out of college I had, I was a supervisor, and so I had to learn at an early age to supervise people older than me. I had to learn to supervise. I was a supervisor at a small job shop in Arkansas where I was the only black person there, let alone supervisor. So I had to pull everything out of the bag that I had. And basically we talk about with management, management is literally getting people to perform. Getting people to perform at the levels we need them to do. So if that's your goal, there are several ways to do that. There are proven track records one way or the other, but there are several ways to do that.
So fast-forward learning to do that, there was always something missing. There was always 10% of my job, the 10% that I couldn't control, that always bugged me more, the 90% I could. And so more and more, as I learned more, it became apparent really quick that I wasn't going to be one of these corporate climb the ladder, that kind of thing. I could, I did, as you saw in my career, I did progress. I did move up. Every job was a step forward. I didn't do any lateral moves. It was run a department, run a facility, run a region, run a company. It was that. But there was still something missing because I was still taking orders from people and the orders came and the orders didn't always make sense. So that was the pull.
And then there was one particular incident where we sold the company. I was the president of the company and had to write checks to the owners. And there were big checks and that kind of thing. And then when it came around to what I was supposed to get, I was reminded that I was just an employee. So I got a fraction of what the owners get. I could have fought for it, but I said, "No. I'm going to let this burn for a second. I'm going to let it burn. I'm going to let it hurt. I'm going to let it do everything and I'm going to make sure that I never work for anybody else again." And so that was it. All culminated up to that. Everybody has this. I'm going to go to my boss and I'm going to tell them that I'm leaving because I'm starting my own business and any of that. And I tell any young entrepreneur, if you're doing that, your thought is all in the wrong spot anyway. You shouldn't even care what your boss thinks. If you're ready to move on what your boss thinks, what anybody thinks should be the last thing because you should have so many other things you're worried about.
So when I came in and gave my notice to the last boss I had, I gave them a month and they didn't know what to do with that. I'm like, "Well, it's a month." My ego thing says you can't replace me quickly, so let me give you a month. Which also let them know I wasn't going to a competitor because no competitor would've waited a month anyway. But I don't even remember the conversation because I was barely concerned with what he thought. It didn't even matter. I was concerned about getting my business up to running. When can I leave? That kind of thing.
So you got to have the right motivation for it too. And the motivation has to be that I want to control my destiny. I want to be the one calling shots. Story that was given to me from a mentor of mine ... Because I asked people about their failures. I rarely ask people about successes. I ask about their failures because in my opinion, there's way more to learn from your failures than your successes. So I asked him about his biggest failure and he talked about a business he went into where he owned 49%, the other person owned 51% and a whole bunch of stuff went wrong, and they ended up having to dissolve the company. And I said, "Well, what was the big lesson?" He said, "I'll never own 49% of anything again." So in his mind, the reason it didn't go well, because he wasn't in control, because if he was in control, this would've went a whole different way. You got to have that mindset. That no matter what, it's different, but insert me in it, it's going to go well because I have what it takes. And so if you don't have that, get that from somewhere before you decide you want to be an entrepreneur. And I'm not telling you anything you don't know.
Carol:
Sure. For sure. That's amazing. You dropped several gems here that I definitely see. We'll talk more about that as we continue on this interview. But one of the things that you talked about was learning very early on was how to manage people. And as you talked about being not only a young leader but the only black leader in an environment, my goodness, you had learn-
James:
In Arkansas.
Carol:
In Arkansas.
James:
In South Arkansas.
Carol:
So you had to learn how to put yourself aside to be able to motivate and inspire people, like you said, because that's the whole goal of management is to get people to step up and do their best work. And so, my goodness, I'm sure that alone could probably be a podcast episode to talk about that experience.
James:
It actually should be a made for TV movie.
Carol:
Yes. I would agree with that. I would agree with that. But in addition to that, I love what you talked about when you're ready to do it and believing in yourself and knowing that when you insert yourself into something that you are going to be ... That should be your guarantee to know that it's got to happen, that you're going to make it happen. So the podcast is called the People Forward Leadership, and it rests on the pillars of leader awareness and empowered ecosystems or building those high performing teams and continuous learning and creating an environment where there's trust and engagement for people to learn. And I'm already seeing where these pillars are showing up for you, particularly in leader awareness. That self-belief, that knowing that I can make this happen and really always leaning into understanding yourself so that you can be the best leader you can possibly be. I'm curious, how has that and some of the other pillars shown up in how you shape the culture that you're building at your companies?
James:
Let's go back to self-awareness. One, when you get to the point you know who you are and you know the type of person that you work well with. You know the type of person that really gets on your nerves. You know The type of person that ... So when you find that out about yourself, don't ignore that. Don't ignore that about yourself. Lean into that who you do well with. Now, it could be depending on the industry you're in a personality that grinds your gears could be a personality that does well in that industry. That's when you need to make some changes. You need to look and say like, okay, but the business decides that if you're into ... Just for software engineering. If you like a loquacious team of people up and around and doing things and that's how you feed your energy, having a bunch of software engineers or just engineers period is probably not going to be your bag. Not to say that there aren't engineers, you're looking at one, that are extroverted and that kind of thing, but it's not necessarily the norm.
What you got to do ... What they need is they need really rigid, they need specific things that they have to do. They need to be held accountable. They need to see that the team's held accountable and they need to understand what the mission is and what the goal is at all times. And they need to understand how they fit into it very, very specifically. So that's a thing. If that's not, you need to get good at that. Otherwise, other than situations like that, know who you are and know what works well with me. What works well with me is the person that comes in guns blazing and doesn't complain a lot, just gets it done. Because I find it easier for me to hold and rein you back or to take you and guide you and move you this way because you're moving that way as opposed to, come on, let's go. Let's go. Or every day you come in getting information from me or that kind of thing. Both are problems and for another manager, maybe the problem of reining people in is too much. Maybe there are other managers and bosses and leaders who thrive off of that. Let me give you your daily downloads and let me be very good with information and give it to you specifically so you can get it done. That's not me.
Every lesson, every stop you named on the intro, I brought a lesson with me about what was success, what wasn't, what worked well, what didn't. So the team I have now, there are some go-getters, but what they also are are not necessarily people who fit either in other situations. I have a person on my team who has special needs in their family and they can't go into an office, but they're a designer and they can design and they can work all the way around. And so we're virtual. That person's perfect for my team. Any of my competitors, probably not. But knowing that person is perfect for my team, then I set up everything for that person to be successful, and I make sure we tailor that person's contract, that person's working conditions and everything to fit that person. That person's probably not going to leave because they know. Well, they know two things. They know one, this fits their life, this fits what they need. They also know that based on interactions they've had with me, if something needs to change, we can change it. There are very few things that I look at as a big deal. That, oh my God, you're coming asking me this. That's not how I react to most things. Most things is there's just news. There isn't good news, there isn't bad. There's just news. There's things you're going to bring me that I got to deal with.
If you allow me, there's a story I like to tell my kids and to people I mentor. It's ancient China. There's a farmer and it's the farmer, his son and his wife, and they have a horse and they have this farm. They have two plows, one horse and they have a farm. So one day the farmer is trying to train the horse and the horse runs away. The horse breaks off, runs away leaves. His neighbor comes up and is like, "Wow. The horse left. What are you going to do? That's horrible news." He's like, "I don't know. The horse left. We'll figure it out." Next day the horse comes back because the horse found a mare and he comes back. Now he has two horses with two plows so he can get two done. So it wasn't necessarily bad news. So his son, while training the other horse to run the plow breaks his leg. So now his son can't work and he's older. His son can't work. Who's going to do the farm? The neighbor comes and says, "Oh my God, your son broke his leg. That's horrible." And he's like, "Well, broke his leg. He lives and that kind of thing. We'll see."
Well, within the week there's a war out and the emperor wants all the able-bodied men from this province to come fight. They come to this farmer's house. The farmer's too old. His son has a broken leg, so his son can't fight. So they move on. So that broken leg saved his son's life. There's always something and it's all about how he looked at it. It's about how you look at it. You're going to bring me something, we're going to just look at it. And you're not allowed to walk ... That's the thing. Nobody's allowed to walk in and say, "I have good news, bad news." They know that gets on my nerves so much because you're determining what I'm going to think of this before you even come to me. Yes, sometimes we lost money. That's bad news. That is bad news. I'm not going to say always. I'm not this Zen person. So if you come to me and say, "We lost," you're going to get an emotional reaction. I promise you, you will. But for the most part it's more like, "No. Just tell me the problem without any of your biases. Just tell me the problem. We'll work out the problem."
You got to be able to work in that environment to work for me, and I know that. And if in the interview process we determine you can't work ... You could be the best person in the world, but I know it won't work here. Or at least from what I've seen, it won't work here. So those are the things I look for. And then I know we are small. We don't have the cache that McKinsey or PWC has or something like that. I know that. So if I go for the talent they go for, I'm probably not going to get it. But what I find is the people who are good at their job, who may not necessarily fit anywhere else, and that immediately makes you attractive to me.
Carol:
That is so cool.
James:
Yeah. If you're saying, "I don't fit here, I never felt at home there, but I'm good at my job." Because before we do anything, you have to be good at your job. So to everybody out there, you can be diversity, you can be a diverse candidate, you can be whatever. You can be a man, woman, you can be whatever it is. But first, be good at your job. Because if you're not, there's no point in having the conversation. That's what it is with me. So we can look at everything else, but if you're not good at your job, we can be friends maybe, but you can't work for me.
Carol:
Well, I love what you're saying because oftentimes when people think about people forward leadership or human centered leadership, you were very clear. There's accountability, there's fit, there's can you do the job? You got to be good at what you're doing. It doesn't mean that you lower standards or you lower expectations because you're leaning into making sure that you're doing, like you said, giving people, setting people up for success. So they come to you with whatever, but if they can do the job, you also make sure that that they're set up for success as well.
James:
Absolutely. Absolutely. Because the key thing is they can do the job. That's it. If you're in a wheelchair, that doesn't preclude you from working for me because we don't really have offices. We're all virtual. So you can be where you want to be. Can you do the job? Somebody calls you, can you help them solve their problem? Can you work with my clients to get them to see a complicated situation and see the solution? Can you help my clients do that? Yes, there are times where we have to be client-side. So I'm not saying that's never ... And we do and we show up and we look just as professional as any of the other ones. But just know everybody that works for me is special because they don't fit anywhere else. And I say that and I say that with a great amount of pride.
Carol:
Wow. Wow. You said something else, which I think is important, and I think this goes to the culture that you've created about there's no good or bad. I talk a lot with leaders about not letting circumstances dictate your feelings and your actions and things of that nature, that it starts with what you believe to be true. And if you believe something is a problem, you're going to run around like the sky's falling versus if you believe something is fixable or it's not a big deal or we'll figure it out, it creates a whole different, not only approach, but also an environment for your people to not be afraid to say, "Hey, this is happening or that's happening, or I may have made an error or something went wrong." So it helps to really build that psychological safety. I think within your environment of where there's trust and there is a belief that whatever they bring, it could be solved as opposed to it's a problem that can't be overcome.
James:
Well, one of the things I was always told growing up was you approach a situation with curiosity, not with judgment. So if you come in ... You could come in and say this, this, and then you've had bosses that finish your sentence for you. And this is what happened. Or they walk into a situation, well, why are we doing this? Why are we doing that? Even if I feel like I know what's happening, first thing is tell me what happened. So tell me what happened. Even if somebody has already told me what happened when you walk into my office, it's no, tell me what happened. Well, you probably no, I want to hear from you. Tell me what happened because I don't know. Because a lot of times there's a piece of information somebody left out, and so try not to jump to conclusions, approach a situation with curiosity, not with judgment. Because first thing you're going to do is you're going to put the person at ease. And you always want ...
I've had this theory forever and it's never failed me. Anybody sitting across my desk, anybody I'm negotiating with any employee I have, the first thing I want you is comfortable because when you're comfortable. I know how to deal with you and you're going to tell me the truth or you're going to tell me things that you may not want to tell me. I want you at ease. I don't want you on edge. So if I see you on edge, I'm going to do the most to put you at ease, even if I'm firing you. I've done that. I've fired people, walked out, arm around their shoulder, shook their hand, hug them and all that. And they still had to go but nobody ever thought I had a secret agenda or anything like that.
No, I don't know what happened. Tell me. Well, I think I know, but why don't you tell me? So walk in. So what's happening here? Tell me what's going on. Walk out to the floor. Hey, so what happened? Well, this, this, and this. Okay, well, then you ask more and more questions, and that's all. That's how I feel is the best way to get the most out people is that way. Is let people be comfortable. Let them talk and then you'll get what you got to get.
Carol:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, you talked about having a small team, and I know when you have such a eclectic group of individuals, when I hear you talk about your team, I think about the Avengers or a superhero team of like everybody has their own special skills.
James:
Don't do that. They're going to hear it and think they're the Avengers. Now I'm going to hear that all day.
Carol:
But I do. That's what I think about. You have everybody with their own special abilities who are coming together and forming this amazing team. So I know when you have such a core group of individuals like that, if there's a departure that could be a problem to maybe replace them. So what practices do you keep besides giving people everything that they need? I love that to succeed, to keep turnover low and loyalty high within the organization?
James:
Overpay them and under work them. So we get in the consulting business, the gap to cross, especially for people that came out of manufacturing, is you are getting paid for the value you bring to the client, not for the amount of work and hours you put in. There are some things, yes. We get a big contract. Clients are like anybody, they want to see us there. They want to see us in a conference room writing things on a whiteboard, or they want to know that we were there because just people want to feel that that's what they're getting, their money's worth. And there are some gigs like that that we take. But for the most part it's about what's the issue? How can we solve the issue? How much value does solving that problem bring to you Mr. client or Mrs. client, and that's how I'm going to charge you, and that's how we pay our people is based on that.
So that concept where you can really get that into your mind, it's like, you know what, the value of my work versus the value of my time. When you can get that across. And again, if you're the right person. And not everybody can ... Because some people do want to get up, feel that they go to a place, feel that they put in their time and that's what they get paid for and feel like that's what they're going to get paid for. If that's the case, this probably won't be a fulfilling position for you because there isn't that much. It isn't like that. You could be working, you could be working on something for 16 hours straight. You really could be. Or it could take you three hours to do it. It's about the value. What value did you bring? So the people that come along with us on this journey value that more than anything because it allows them to live the life they want.
Carol:
Yeah. That is so great. That's so great. That is a fundamental core of that empowered ecosystem of creating high performing teams is that people feel valued and they feel like their contribution is valued.
James:
Absolutely.
Carol:
And so I love the way you frame that in terms of letting them know the value they bring and then paying them accordingly so that they know the contribution they're making is significant.
James:
Absolutely. Now, when you get into lean manufacturing ... So get us back, there are a lot of functional things on lean manufacturing, a lot of principles. But the one that always gets ignored, which I think is amazing because it's the one that's going to determine your success or failure, is performance management.
Carol:
Tell more about that.
James:
That is the piece of lean manufacturing that matters. I can put squares on the ground, I can give you a little Kanban cards. I can put the tag time above your machine and all that. But all that's for for you as a leader to manage performance because that's the skill. The skill is being able to have a productive conversation with an employee and get them to do what we need them to do. That's it. That's what you get paid for as a manager, as a leader. We can find anybody to write people up. We can find anybody to keep people's attendance on whether they're here or not. We can find anybody to just come in at the end of the year and do a review based on these things we give them and just read it out and have them answer questions. That's not what you're there for.
As a matter of fact, that should be less than 20% of your time. Most of your time should be having fundamental effective meetings with your people on some level, which deal with performance. So you can get across the message you need to do that lets them know what they need to do to get the job done.
Carol:
Yeah. I really love what you said about that because when you're working in these kind of Kaizen type of shops where you have, like you said, all of these things that are happening, so ideas don't get stuck on the shop floor or issues don't come up the chain where they need to be. Performance management, what I'm hearing you saying is very vital and incorporating the things that you talked about, helping people feel valued, giving them the things they need for success, letting them know that, hey, there's no good or bad. There's just what, let's put our heads down and figure it out. So creating that culture. I see why there's so much success and why there's really great retention in your people that you work with.
James:
Yeah. But we have to understand all those things. Understanding your people, getting them empowered, all that. The only purpose of that is so they can get their job done. We lose that whole ... Excuse me ... That's the end game of everything you're doing. At some point, if you're doing it well, they should be better at their job a year from now than they were now. They should be better at their tasks. They should be better doing what they're supposed to do. Some of them should work themselves out of the job, and it's up to you to backfill with responsibility. Your people should be getting better all the time. If they're not, go look in the mirror because it ain't them. Go look in the mirror. It ain't them. Because if it is them, then still go look in the mirror because that meant you should have saw it. You should have noticed it, and you should have got them out of there and brought people in. Because after a while you can't blame anybody but you. The whole point of this is all of your what they're doing, they should be better at it as time goes on.
Carol:
Yeah.
James:
Your team should be better. You shouldn't be dealing with the same issues in April that you're dealing with in December. Something went wrong, something went wrong, and everything you're doing should support that fact. So people forward leadership, in my opinion, comes down to that fact, comes down to that simple thing. We do everything, we do all this just to get you to do what you need to do at a level that's acceptable to the companies.
Carol:
Yeah. You can't get more bottom line than that. And that is so true. That is the bottom line. And what you're saying, everything that you're doing with that outcome and focus creates the environment and the results that you want to create within your organization and the financial success of the organization. But you have to think about how to do those things and do them well. Like you said, if you are repeating the same things over and over again or people aren't progressing, they're not learning, they're not innovating, they're not stepping up and getting better, then I love what you said about look in the mirror because it means that you head may be not on right in terms of the things you need to do to generate that performance level.
James:
Absolutely. I hear it all the time. Well, there's all these meetings. Well, why are you having these meetings? I'm not saying don't have meetings. Meetings are a system of control for a company. That's literally what they are. How does a company ,... Especially a huge company with all this bureaucracy, with all these moving parts, how does it control everything? It's with meetings. Because they're a system of control. So use them as a system of control. In those meetings, are you talking about? Their performance? Are you talking about the performance of this? Okay. You're talking about the performance. Are you talking about how to make the performance better or are you just talking about how bad the performance is? Are you saying we need to get better or are you coming in bringing ways for them to get better? Yes. You want your people empowered. Yes. You want ideas coming from your people, but if they ain't got it, they ain't got it. So guess what? If they ain't got it's you. Because if they ain't got it, they're not going to manufacture it. So what are you there for? Guess what that means? That means you got to come in with the idea. You got to come in with this is how we're going to get better.
So my thing is never to do a blank slate of let's just bring everybody in and talk about how to get better and all that. No. I've never ... My thing is you come up with a plan that they can rally around and make them comfortable enough to know that they can pick at your plan and feel like they can change it.
Carol:
Wow.
James:
Instead of just starting with this blank slate. Because if they could start with a blank slate, if they could figure it out, they'd have done it already. Because they don't want to sit there in those meetings and be told all the time how they're not good enough either.
Carol:
Yeah. For sure.
James:
If they could figure out a way to not have to be there and not have to sit and listen to you tell them how good they're not, they'd have been done it. Trust me. It's not enjoyable for them to sit here and ... As unenjoyable as it for you to sit out and talk to them about it. It's less enjoyable for them to sit there and listen to you every week, every month or whatever, every quarter sit there and talk about how we're not good enough. Well, then it's on you.
Carol:
Yeah. Yeah. I love that. So your supplier network stretches from North America to Asia. How do you extend that people forward mindset to partners that you may never meet in person, especially when negotiating those high-stake contracts?
James:
Well, it's like anything else. You got to find out what the common goal is. So if we sign up a new supplier in Taiwan, for instance. We've got suppliers in Taiwan. What makes this one different? First off, why do we want to do it, I guess is the first part. Why do we want to do it? Well, there's a segment that a territory or a product mix that's not currently in our portfolio now or that's too expensive. Okay. Great. That's why we want to do it. Why would they do it with us? And then that's where we spend the most of the time. Most of the time is spent, why this supplier would sign up with us. Why would they want to join our network? Why would they want to partner with us? What do they get out of it? Can they go directly? What do they get out with being with us? And so figure out what they want, what they probably want. And we have at this point, what's just as impressive to me and to our clients is our intelligence, is our market intelligence that we have. We just have the ability to through a bunch of different ways to find out who's where, what supplier is hungry, who lost what account. We just bought a new piece of machinery, that kind of thing. And we've been able to do that.
And so by that, we can formulate a package that makes it attractive to them. Because it's literally with anything else ... And I have two sons that are coming of age, and I try and ... If you want something, somebody to do something for you, make it as easy as possible for them to do it. And then if you really need it, make it so they can't say no. And it may mean doing something for them too that you may or not. But then you think about how badly do you want this thing done. Whatever it is. If you want to get on the track team, fine. Who's the coach? What's his name? What's her name? What's happening there? Just formulate that. But it's all about making it easy for somebody to say yes. And so that's what we do.
Carol:
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So the other thing too is I know you've sourced eco-friendly and even Hemp-based packaging, and how has giving your team and your clients this sustainability mission changed engagement or innovation inside the organization?
James:
Well, part of the, I guess benefit for looking at the type of person that I want, looking at the type of person that I know will do well in this, that person ... Forgive my language. There's a saying here where James places a high value on give a shit. So give a shit covers up a whole bunch of mistakes for me if I knew you cared. And so they care for the client, they care about getting the job done. And it just so happens the profile is they care about the environment. So a lot of these people, it's a personal mission for them. So when we talk sustainable packaging, we're also ... In JKT Financial, in the JKT Financial Group, we work with investors who want to invest in sustainable packaging companies. And so what's the story there? What needs to happen? What's going on here? What's going on there? Like coatings or ink or some particular paper. We had a project with stone paper, paper made of stone. Literally paper made of stone. And funny thing, archives. Archives that want to be flame resistant. Archives that want to put things on but it needs to be flame resistant or something like that. Stone paper doesn't burn because it's rocks.
Carol:
I didn't know that.
James:
Stone paper doesn't burn. It's highly flame resistant. I'm sure if you put enough heat to it would probably incinerate, but just compared to paper. But the person that pitched that really, really is into that. When she pitches it, she's really into sustainability. She's really into ... She volunteered for the Altadena fires, that kind of thing. So something that's flame resistant, she can speak from it from that kind of way.
Another thing, we're trying to eliminate microplastics from certain parts of packaging. And so one of the guys that are on our team, he floats between our team as freelance, but he's a part of the team. He had a procedure and microplastics where found in his body. And apparently microplastics are in all of our bodies. So it's in everything. So when he speaks to it, he speaks from that. He speaks from that core thing. I know I don't want this, it happened to me. I don't want it happening to you. Or I don't want the fact that there's a huge piece of plastic in the Pacific Ocean that's the size of Texas that's growing every day. I don't want that. I want to get rid of that. So he can give you that and then he can speak more passionately on the benefits of it when we're either looking to invest in these companies or invest in the technology.
So again, everything comes back to people. And I know this is a people podcast, so that's why I'm bringing it back to people. But everything you're doing, if you can find the right person who's also passionate about it, who's qualified, passionate, and can speak to it, your team's going to move mountains. They just are because there's no way they don't. Think about, you've heard sales pitches, the impassioned sales pitch is going to at least stick with you. The person who can make it personal with you and with them is going to stick with you. All things being equal, you're going to go with the person who gives a shit. You just are. But you're going to go with the person that does that. That's going to matter to you. And that's what I've found in everything we do. If I can put the most passionate person in front of a client on an issue, I have a confidence we'll close. Because the passion speaks for itself.
Carol:
Yeah. It speaks for itself. Yeah. It comes out very obvious. Now you've mentored leaders, including me. I have been lucky enough to be mentored by you.
James:
The pleasure was all mine, by the way.
Carol:
And you've mentored people outside of your sector. What have those experiences taught you about multiplying people for leadership beyond your own walls, and how does that feed back into the culture of your company?
James:
I pick up something from everybody, and whether you think you've given it to me or not, because what I've learned is I'm just going to listen to everything. I'm going to listen way more than I talk. I'm just going to listen. And I may not tell you what to pick, but I make sure I pick up something from it. Even if it's not something for me, if it's something for another mentee that I have or something like that. So mentoring people in the entertainment industry, for instance, I was silent partner on a record label for a little bit. And so I still have people in the entertainment industry that I do mentor. They're doing this. And one of the things I learned is I don't believe what anybody says. I believe what everybody does, but I don't believe what anybody says.
Carol:
Okay.
James:
So there's a key thing. You can say something, but if you don't say it in an email, which is forever, which can always be tracked back to you, I'm going to believe more what you put in the email as opposed to what you told me. So it's little things like that because in the entertainment industry, you just have to assume everybody's lying. Everybody's lying. If they tell you something that's happening, cut it down by 50% and that's probably somewhere around the truth. So I got that. The engineers that I've mentored, the precision, precision in everything you do. Precision in everything you do. If you're that precise in your job, in your profession, what I found is it's very hard to be that precise in your job and then have a messy life. You're that precise everywhere. And being precise ... And one of the mentors I was talking to, and I tell them like, "Man, you're sharp every day. Every day you come to work." And he's like, "You're just sharp." And I said, "That's great. That's great." I'm talking well beyond they just come to work looking nice. He was sharp. Every day he was sharp. He was like he was going to a press conference every day. And he said, "I want to show people that no detail gets past me."
Carol:
Wow.
James:
And I thought, okay. All right. Let me iron my shirt a little bit more. And I thought about that. Yes. If you see somebody who, if you're going to do business with somebody and they come and they have the studious notes that they've taken and their shirt is clean and their office is pristine for certain things ... Maybe this ain't the person you want to go get a drink with, but this is certainly the person you want managing your money, or this is certainly the person you want managing your account. This is the person you want doing that. And being able to project that is important as it depends, as per your industry. So I've learned that from certain things. All that is fed back to me. You, for instance, you have reminded me ... Talking to you reminded me of something I've forgotten, and I was ashamed to say that people are the thing that makes this whole thing go. That you can do whatever you can do wherever, but people are what makes this thing go. And if you lose sight of that, you've lost the message. So you reminded me of that.
Carol:
Well, thank you.
James:
My time with you reminded me of that, and it hammered it in my head like, no, there's processes, there's this, there's that but people are what makes it happen.
Carol:
Wow. Wow. Wow. Thank you. I am flattered by that. I'm glad that I left you with something because you left me with so much. Well,
James:
I appreciate that. I appreciate that.
Carol:
So just one final question. If a listener could just take one practical step toward a more people forward workplace today on a packaging line or in a startup or anywhere, what would you prescribe so that they can keep leading people forward?
James:
Well, there's a lot, basically. But if you're going to be people forward, remember the one thing, approach a situation with curiosity, not with judgment. And that means to say, when somebody tells you something, always assume in their mind they had a good reason for doing it. Put you in that situation, it may not make sense. But your job is to get to the bottom of that. If you truly are concerned about correcting behavior and making this person better, if you're just concerned about fixing the problem and moving on or whatever, or making yourself look good, then don't bother going into that because you're just wasting your time. But if you're really concerned about the person, then have that extra conversation to make sure you understand well, what were you thinking? Tell me why this made sense to you and see if you can walk them through that logic. Understand their logic. There may have been something that you missed. There may be something you missed. And then we turn around and do this whole thing differently there. Maybe they were onto something and the way you told them to do it threw their thinking off. You don't know any of that. If you're truly concerned about the person, find out what was the reason why they did what they did, because in their mind they had a good reason for it.
So if you can do those, if you truly care about correcting behavior and improving performance, you cannot get around having that conversation, having a performance management conversation where you sit down and talk to them about their thought process, understand what makes them tick. Remember the goal is to get them to do their job better. You're not a therapist, you're not that. You can go to Dr. Carol for that. But your job as boss, leader, manager is to get them to do their job better, to be more efficient. And for the company's sake, you want to build your bench strength. You want to build capabilities. So you really do want to understand and make them better. But it's not going to happen without a conversation, without you getting down into the middle of it.
Carol:
Yeah. Well, thank you so much for this insight. Thank you for sharing how a packaging supply chain powerhouse can still run on human fuel, like leader awareness and powered ecosystems and relentless commitment to learning and showing that people forward isn't feel good fluff but operational strategy in order to get people to do their job for effectiveness within the organization.
James:
That's the point. That's the point. We can dress it all up, but in the end, that's why this is important because your goal is to get people to do what you need them to do.
Carol:
Yes. Yes. And I know the three things I definitely am taking away. You shared so much, but definitely look inward, look in the mirror, I heard you say. Second, find people who know how to do great work and then empower them to be successful. And then to make sure that you are helping people to grow and learn and innovate, and to bring their passion into what they do for success. I heard those nuggets as well.
James:
Absolutely. And it all comes from that performance management conversation. You can't get around it. So if you're trying to get around doing this without having a deep conversation with your people on performance and what makes them tick, you're wasting your time.
Carol:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, again, thank you so much for joining me.
James:
No problem. No problem. Thank you for having me. Thank you. And don't be a stranger. Don't be a stranger. You know how to reach me.
Carol:
Absolutely. Absolutely. So I hope today's conversation sparked ideas for your own leadership journey. And be sure to follow us and give us five stars and drop a review so more leaders can discover what it means to put people first. And remember, when people thrive, organizational success is inevitable. I want to thank you for joining me, and until next time, keep leading people forward. I'll see you soon.
