Carol:
Welcome, welcome back to the podcast. I am so excited to talk to our guest today, someone who is a true catalyst in the transit industry, Shawn Donaghy. And I invite you to read more about his bio in our show notes because then you'll see what I'm talking about. Shawn is the CEO of the North County Transit District in San Diego, one of only three transit agencies in the country operating across bus and multiple rail modes. His leadership career has spanned operations and maintenance, safety and risk, security, technology, service scheduling, and large scale capital projects. So he's lived at the intersection of people, systems, and public accountability. He's also a third generation public transit CEO, which we will get into, and serves in key industry leadership roles, including on the executive committee of the APTA board and as president of the Bus Coalition, bringing a national lens to what transit leaders are navigating right now.
In this conversation, we're going to walk through Shawn's career, his commitment to supporting women in diverse leadership and transit, and what it really takes to lead complex systems without losing the people who make those systems run. So Shawn, I want to welcome you to the podcast and thank you so much for being with me today.
Shawn:
Oh, thank you. It's amazing to be here and it's great to see you again.
Carol:
Thank you. So I always like to start off by learning about your journey into leadership. And as I said, you're a third generation transit CEO, which I want to hear all about that. And when did you realize that this wasn't just a family business, but maybe your own calling that you were able to take up on your own?
Shawn:
Yeah, ever since I was a kid, I used to go to work with my dad and I used to hang out in the clubroom and kind of watch that interaction of how my dad, when he was moving through the ranks, was kind of dealing with things. And then when we would go to family reunions, I got the benefit of listening to my dad and my grandfather have conversations about really what the industry was about and what they were trying to accomplish. And both really, for me, set a really good framework for what how they wanted the workplace to be seen. Really, my dad and my grandfather specifically were pretty early trailblazers on trying to solve some diversity issues we had in the workplace, especially back in the '60s and '70s.
And then my father actually is the only CEO in transit history to have federal funding from the Highway Department withheld to a city on the basis of racial discrimination in public transit. And they did a movie about it, The Kirwan Institute at the Ohio State University actually did a movie about it.
Carol:
Wow.
Shawn:
And it involved several members of the Department of Highway and then Civil Rights Office. And it was the first time in history that someone had ever had actual highway funding removed on the basis of a civil rights violation. And getting into the industry early at that point in my career, I was like, man, I've just been really fortunate to have some really good leaders both that I worked for and then in the family that just kind of drove me to be the person that I kind of wanted to be in my career.
Carol:
That's amazing, just watching that level of leadership. And how did that continue to just shape your leadership today in terms of the values that you have and how you work as a leader, how you show up as a leader, how you even become a trailblazer in the industry yourself?
Shawn:
Yeah, I think it started, honestly, when I was a kid. I mean, my mom and my dad fought really hard. I mean, they were young. I'm the oldest of three. They were pretty young when I was born, and I think they had a lot of drive and ambition, but really struggled at points in times in their life to figure out what they wanted to be in the long run, how they were going to take care of their kids. And the one thing that were non-negotiables for my parents were everybody's welcome. And if you always work under that premise, you'll really never fail at life. The only caveat for not being allowed in our household was like, "Are you a jerk?" If you're a jerk.
And my mom was really, really a big proponent of that. I think just based on her childhood and her lived experiences, she really had to figure out what she wanted for her children as she grew up. And she really set the tone for, I think, the three of us to really manage what we wanted out of that transaction later in life.
But I think it's lived experiences too, I only know what I know, and I think I've been really lucky throughout my career to work for people who have had lived or shared experiences that I didn't. And I may have had a theory in my brain about, "Oh, that's not okay." And they would say, "No, let's dissect that and walk through pieces that maybe you're not seeing." And I think that really helped shape later in my career how I really wanted to see things and how we would put things out organizationally. And so I've always been pretty thankful for that too.
Carol:
That's amazing. Yeah, I believe really strongly that whole self-reflective piece as a leader and how we grow up shapes how we show up as a leader and it informs our values and what we do in the workplace and how we connect to other people. So I love that the impact, the amazing impact, even having a film made about the significance of things that happen with your own family and just the lessons that you learned from your mom really shaping your leadership.
And I know in a complex system that you lead, what are some of the strengths that you have identified that really you use to support your other leaders? How do you use that to shape the culture within the organization? How do you lean into your strengths to really move and drive a system forward to achieve the results that it needs to achieve?
Shawn:
Yeah, I think it's authenticity. I think the first thing that employees will see right out the gate is, it's never going to be perfect. Policies may not cover everything that occurs throughout the day in a workplace. If leaders are disingenuous about who they are as individuals and what they want from the transaction, employees are going to shut that off.
I always find the first year they're really intrigued by, "Oh, wow, I hear you saying all the right things." That's great. Year two, they get a little testy and they're like, "Hey, is this for real? Are we really doing this?" And then by the end of year two, they really have to feel like they're in a space where they can be comfortable to be who they are, be unapologetically authentic, be able to say things respectfully that they feel like they can in the workplace, and that we don't take offense to that. It's not a personal attack on you if something's not right. It's a perception that someone has that maybe we need to address. The flip side of that is you always have to be honest with them too. Don't feed them full of positives all day and be like, "Yeah, hey, that's great," and then not come through with it. If there's constructive feedback that needs to be had, we have to have that conversation together.
But I think before policy, before anything, it starts with the employees have to know that no matter what happens throughout the day or throughout the week, that you are working in their best interest. And that could be on a personal level, that could be on a professional level, that could be on a I'm getting paid correctly level, that could be on an equity level. All of those things, the employees have to know that, yeah, it's not always going to be easy, but I'm here to make sure that you have a good future. And if they don't have that feeling, I think it's a lost cause right out the gate.
Carol:
Yeah. I love that, that authenticity, being honest, having constructive feedback and letting them know that you're here in their best interest. I love those as pinnacles of things to really support and adapt as a leader.
And you talked about what they kind of watched year one and then year two, they're like, "Okay, are you going to deliver on what you said?" And you're celebrating, you just celebrated your second year at NCTD. And I'm curious, what surprised you most and what did it tell you about what the organization needed from your leadership?
Shawn:
Yeah, I think everybody has a different skillset and sort of leadership tactic or quality. And I think the one thing that I saw when I walked in the door here was for years prior to my arrival, the agency had struggled a little bit with public perception. It had struggled a little bit with people maybe taking some unnecessary shots at the leadership of the organization and stuff. And I think maybe rightfully so, I mean, I knew my predecessor, I've known him for a decade. He's a great guy, but I think one of the things that he struggled with was he was here for 15 years and he went through the pieces that weren't great. And he got to a part where I think he was just like, "It's about the business. We just got to maintain the business."
And I'm very much a business person. I want to see those things happen in real time. I'm fairly aggressive as it relates to timelines and expectations. But for me, it has to go back and start with how our employees are perceived organizationally and then how that translates to our customers and our partners in the community.
And so that shift has really occurred over the past couple years. And we've brought in some individuals and promoted a lot of folks from within that really share that vision and are very employee first and then very community first, like almost on the same level. And once I think you have that sort of expectation, it makes things a lot easier for employees to feel like, "Hey, this has been a problem for years and I really haven't said anything, and now I want to make sure that you're aware that this is a problem."
And I like that. The shocking piece I think for me was people just didn't feel comfortable coming in and saying, "Hey, I really think this is an issue or I have a personality conflict with this or I don't understand the organization's vision." And now I think people in our quarterly meetings with employees and weekly meetings with our executive staff, they just feel a lot more comfortable to be able to say, "Yes, I don't like that. That's a problem. Let's talk through it or can you explain it to me?" Or, "Okay, I get that we're doing that. I still don't like it. Just want it on the record. Okay, that's fine."
I think that was kind of the biggest part for me. Most systems, they operate. Usually if you have operational problems or there's something politically going on, it's relationship. It's a relationship you don't have or that they don't want to have. And once you fix that, usually things are okay.
Carol:
Yeah. I love what you shared that it was definitely a people forward lens. And I know sometimes it can be a struggle for some leaders to lean into, how do I support my people when I have deliverables that need to happen? And what I hear you saying is that you're able to see how helping your people was able to contribute to being able to contribute to the bottom line, as you said, in terms of results.
And what I heard you talking about was really psychological safety and making sure that people feel safe enough to speak up and to share their ideas and to be able to be honest and authentic in some of the things that you talked about before. And I'm curious, that doesn't come overnight. So as you were coming in and creating that space for them, what were the steps that you took to ensure that people believed that they were able to speak up and be authentic and be their best selves so that it wasn't just a value statement, but it was actually lived in the culture that you were creating there?
Shawn:
Yeah, to be honest, it was a little bit of self-reflection sometimes. I remember when I was pretty young when I first came into leadership, I mean, I was very motivated when I was in my early 20s. And when I got into my 30s, I really hadn't had some leaders at that point that had pointed me in the right direction and said, "Hey, you're going about this all wrong. You're isolating people because you believe that your group of employees are the very best and you're not giving other people the feel like that you're part of the organization or that the team is going to succeed."
And so whenever I sort of walk in, like our deputy CEO says all the time, she says, "You got to walk in wisdom." And so I always go back in time and say, "Okay, when I was not doing that right, how can I share that experience with someone else?" Because the last thing they want to hear is like, "Hey, I'm new here and you're doing this all wrong." I like to share where I've gone sideways in my career so that it's like, "Hey, I've been there. I was where you are right now. That's not a healthy way to manage your relationship with this department or with your group of employees. And if you're not willing to course correct that, you're going to have some significant issues down the line. You may be really great at what you do here in this job specifically, but you'll never have the impact on the organization that you should because you're not expanding your relationships, you're not managing your emotional intelligence in the workplace."
And I think that was probably the one thing that we had a lot of people around the table who I think were hungry for that and just wanted to feel like, okay, I have that ability. And a lot of it for me is just, "Hey, go do your thing."
The caveat to that is don't come in by yourself and tell me you have a plan, because I can't get behind that. You need to go find other people in the organization that feel the way that you do about your plan so that I have a sense that one, you built that relationship, and two, you thought it through with somebody else so that the full impact to the organization has realized. And I'm less likely to say no to something that two or three people think is a great idea, even if I'm the one that's got to make the final decision.
And I think that was always helpful for me. I mean, I've had bosses in the past who were the same way. They were like, "Look, I'm going to let you do what you need to do, but you also need to be willing to listen to the course correction when that time comes." And it's not a punitive thing. I think once people get over the, "Hey, we're not trying to let anybody go. We're not trying to do these things," you just have to be thoughtful about your interaction with, your intentionality of what you're doing. And once that happens, it just all kind of takes off from there.
Carol:
Yeah. Well, I love walk in your wisdom. That's an amazing quote to have. But I really appreciate what you shared about being self-reflective, because I think that's a skillset leaders tend to look externally in terms of what they need to do as opposed to looking and reflecting on themselves. And I love the vulnerability of sharing, here's where I got it wrong or here's what I learned from something and took a different route based on that learning. And modeling that, because I think as a leader to model that, it creates space for your people to be able to do the same thing, which I think is amazing. It's amazing.
I'm curious around how conflict happens and how you manage that. It's inevitable in operations. And I think it's a fascinating thing that when I talk to people around conflict, I know in and of itself it has such a negative connotation. I mean, I think it's just a difference of opinion, but it depends on the emotional, I guess, how charged it becomes, but it's inevitable in operations. And the question is whether it creates fragmentation or really can be used to fuel alignment. How do you handle conflict or misalignment in a way that actually strengthens the culture rather than fractioning it?
Shawn:
Yeah, I definitely think it can be both. I think it depends on who's managing the conflict, how willing someone is to stop and listen to someone else's point of view to get to conflict resolution. Sometimes that's the hard part. I'm a big fan of, not major conflict, but conflict on day-to-day workspace. If we don't have a disagreement, you're the wrong person in that chair or I'm the wrong person in that chair because we're not supposed to just green light everybody's ideas. We're supposed to challenge the norm, make adjustments as needed. I think if people understand conflict or conflict resolution is an opportunity to make things better and come with the best intentions, it works out great.
I would say I've been in situations throughout my career where that wasn't a good thing. The conflict was essentially, you keep asking me to come in with ideas and then you don't do any of them and you don't explain why you don't do any of them. I think good conflict is, "Hey, I hear you and I like pieces of what you're doing. I don't like this part and I really wish we could change it to this." And then it's either, I don't want to say necessarily compromise, but then it's sort of understanding what is the best place we need to be right now and where is the best place we need to be tomorrow?
And those are constantly changing. Whatever we decide today, we can always make it better tomorrow, but is the best place for us to be based on our conversation that has elicited some conflict right here today. We all agree that this is the best spot, let's push forward with that and do what we got to do. Occasionally there's places where we just got to say, "Hey, this is what we're doing. We're going forward with it." I think if you work on those other issues when you have conflict, when those one-offs come up where you just have to make the decision, people usually say, "Okay, I'm going to give you that one and we'll move on to the next thing."
But it all comes down to the leaders around the table. And people, we talk about this a lot at our place, if they see that there is not healthy conflict at the highest levels of the organization, directors and managers will either back up or they will feed off of that and make their own sort of space as a result. And so I think how those conflicts are perceived is absolutely key. We can all have disagreements and sort of manage that conflict in the room, but at the end of the day, we also have to know that I've got your back 100% and she's got your back 100% and he's got your back 100%. And as long as you know that walking out, everything's going to be okay.
Carol:
Yeah, I really love what you talked about, because perception does matter with that and how it's framed makes such a big difference. And to double back to what we talked about, I think one of the misnomers that people have around psychological safety is that everyone gets along and it's always nice. And that actually is not what psychological safety is. It actually is the ability to engage in conflict and disagreement and really grow and learn from it and having space for it. So I love that you talked about challenging the norm makes things better, that it actually gives you greater insight and ways of thinking about things that you may not have considered if people didn't bring an alternate perspective or idea. And really the framing of it and the perception of it is so critical so that you can welcome that.
I'm curious around, you talked about earlier around feedback and construction feedback, what type of feedback loops are you engaging in to make sure that you're hearing from your people, that they are bringing you other information and insights so that you stay informed, but it's a continual loop of exchange of information so that the whole organization can continue to grow, learn, and flourish?
Shawn:
Yeah, I'm not an office person. Honestly, I never thought I would be a CEO. I always figured I would be in operations forever.
Carol:
Even after two generations, really?
Shawn:
Yeah. Back when I was younger, I was a little stubborn, so I always figured that wasn't what they were looking for. But to me, it's visibility. I walk through the building every day and I try to go to different floors and talk to the folks. I go out to our divisions and talk to employees and I try to just slide into some of our executive and director level folks offices and just say, "Hey, what's on your mind today? What's bugging you? What's not bugging you?" Our deputy CEO and I, she and I talk, we talk two hours a day here and then we're texting two hours at night just formulating ideas and thinking about the plan. And our chief of staff's the same way, she's amazing. I mean, our whole executive staff just collaborates a lot to try to figure out what the best solution is. And so for me, I'm very fortunate that I have a lot of people in the circle that will come in and give me information.
And part of that is sharing information too, you got to make sure that they know what you're thinking. In fact, we just had a conversation about that last week about clarity because we've gone through some pretty decent size transitions here. And so now we need to get back to being very clear and concise about what information we're trying to give to the workforce.
But get a lot of good information from the frontline. I think one of the things that's always helped me in my career was I came from operations, so they're not shy about telling me things that affect them because they know that I understand that part of the game, and I think that's helpful. And a lot of our executive staff does too. They all came from someplace within our operation or someplace within their respective field that they bring a lot of credibility to the table.
Carol:
Yeah, I love that. I love being visible, not living in your office, but actually living in the organization so that you can know what's going on. Yeah.
Shawn:
I like my office. It's nice, but-
Carol:
Yeah, yeah. Getting out helps. And you mentioned, I heard you reference your deputy and your chief are females, and what I love is that a lot of industry leaders talk about champion diversity. And I know you and I've had conversations around really being led by strong female leaders and really supporting them, but you've actually created opportunity in hiring and development and access. What does intentional sponsorship look like in practice for you, and what do you think gets in the way of other leaders doing that?
Shawn:
Well, I think it's a combination of a few things. I think some people don't do it intentionally. I think sometimes it's a function of HR job descriptions or, I remember I gave a presentation at COMTO, gosh, shoot, that was 10 years ago. Dang, it was a long time ago.
Carol:
That went fast.
Shawn:
2015, 2016. But we were having a conversation about job descriptions. And back then, the conversation we were having was job descriptions are sort of unintentionally biased. They don't change a whole lot. People don't really think about what they say even when they put them out. And back then, the thing was, if I'm looking for an operations person that has a minimum of 10 years experience and a master's degree and all this stuff, 75% of my candidates are going to be white male over the age of 50 or 45. So right out the gate, we have created an imbalance.
And really, I'm not necessarily looking for someone who has 10 years of operations experience or X, Y, Z. I'm looking for a leader. Unless you're a doctor or an engineer or something like that, I do hope you have those credentials, but most cases, I'm looking for a leader. And to me, leadership is, do you have three to five years of supervisory experience with employees? Do you have a degree? If not, what qualities do you have that would make me look beyond that? And once you widen the pool out, it diversifies by itself. You don't have to necessarily be super intentional about it.
Now, the intentionality part comes in where, at least for me, my dad, I think was pretty good throughout his career in finding opportunities, but he was really good at providing opportunities for others. My mom, not so much. And I remember I was probably out of high school before my mom sort of got an opportunity to work at the school district and kind of move up and do some things, and I think those things kind of bothered me a little bit.
And then when I came into the transit industry, I worked for one of the greats in our business, Inez Evans. I mean, she really took care of me and she had no obligation whatsoever to do so, but she really took opportunities to show me, "Hey, did you see how that situation turned out?" And I said, "Yeah, this thing." And she said, "No, no, no, it's deeper than that." And would walk in and walk me through how people's mannerisms changed in the workplace or how they shut off these opportunities for people when other people came into the room.
And those are things that from my seat at the time, I mean, I was in my early 30s, I would've had no idea late 20s or early 30s, I only know my experience. So when I stopped and started looking at those things, I thought, man, we got to be more intentional about how we message things throughout the workforce, how we look at open jobs and postings.
And the reality of the deal was is the leaders were right there next to us. They just weren't being given opportunities. And when you don't, and I can speak to this from my own too, when you feel like you're not getting opportunities from within, you back up. And when you back up, you start to shut down conversations even with your own peers about, "I feel like I should be in this job, or I think I should be doing this thing, or man, I could really do this." And I just really felt like that wasn't okay. We really wanted a workforce that reflected our communities. So everywhere I've been, I've always tried to be thoughtful throughout the hiring process that we're really looking for. We're really looking for a workforce that represents the very best of all of our communities, and that's everybody. We have to have everybody available for those jobs.
And I've just been very fortunate that we've had some shining stars come through. My first stint as a CEO, our deputy CEO that was there, I brought her with me from Texas. And I went down there and just said, "Hey, I got job opportunity. If you're interested, come with me." And I said, "It's going to lead to bigger, better things." I said, "I'll start as chief of staff and we'll expand it to DCEO." And now she's the CEO in Columbus, Ohio. And when she walked out the door, we had another person that was literally ready to go. It took a little convincing because I don't think she thought she was ready, but I knew she was ready. And then she became my successor when I left and came down here.
I just really feel like from my own seat, there were times where I didn't get the opportunities that I thought I should have. And it really affected me in some kind of way that I really felt like I was going to devote most of my time to making sure that people knew where they stood, what I thought their capacity was. And if they wanted to go beyond their capacity based on that conversation, we were going to provide them the opportunity to do that.
And so it's been a really good journey. I think I've been very lucky in the sense that the right people have been around me at the right times, and we've created really good industry leaders out of that, and that's been a big push for me.
Carol:
Well, I appreciate that. I mean, I think that may be a little humble. I think the right people were around you, but you also looked for them and you cultivated them. And it's because of you, honestly, and the work that you've done and positioning women in chief roles throughout transit is why we've seen so many more women who are in those leadership roles in transit. So I may be humble, but I think your contribution has been, I think, rather significant.
And I'm curious, based on your years within transit, seeing more and more female leaders stepping into those roles, how has that shifted the conversation and the industry in and of itself?
Shawn:
Oh, it's completely changed it. I think historically, and even in my father and my grandfather's generation, there were very few female leaders in our industry at multiple levels. And I think, especially my dad's generation, I think they really saw that as a red flag. And it wasn't indicative of the communities that we served, the leadership that we saw coming through some of the city councils, some of the nonprofits, some of the organizations in the community, really the groups that needed assistance through public transit. We're going to the CEO's conference here in a couple of weeks and it's always nice every year when I see just how different it looks now than it did even 10 years ago.
The thing that I had told some folks at one point in time is, we're really getting to this point in our career, in our industry that I love where we're not having conversations about this type of leader or that type of leader. We're just talking about leaders. And leaders are whoever we designate them to be because the pool is so diverse now that we're just really talking about leaders. We're not talking about an attribute that defines a leader or this, that, or the other. We're just saying, "Hey, we got great leaders now."
For me, selfishly, I have a great relationship with a lot of the leaders in our industry and I lean on their council quite frequently. In fact, a lot of folks like Dawn Distler in Akron, Ohio and Deborah Johnson in Denver and a few other folks, I mean, when things are just not going well, I shoot off a text and give them a call and they either set me straight or give me some sound advice and I always appreciate that. Sometimes a little bit of both, sometimes they smack me around a little bit and tell me maybe I'm not correct and that's all right. I'm okay with that.
But I love to see that in our industry. It's just such a different thought process right now. And times are a little tough in our business. Things are just changing a little bit and the political aspect's getting a little weird sometimes. But by and large, great industry to be in, great to see new people with great ideas. It's just a different school of thought than it used to be.
I think organizations like back in my grandpa's time, they're very hierarchical. I talked to this guy, this guy talks to this guy, and sooner or later I'll talk to somebody down here. And I hate that. To me, the organization is very, it's like the earth. It's very circular. Everybody's got a job. It just has a different responsibility. My responsibility is to manage the people in the organization. Somebody else's job is to do this. It doesn't mean they're any more or less important. It just means we all have a job that we got to do when we come to work. And I love that the industry has changed and seen new leaders and just brought a different energy in it. It's really fun to watch.
Carol:
Well, and you've contributed to that, so that's pretty amazing. That's pretty amazing. So I'm curious, speaking of, or this idea of leaving legacy, because you're seeing the transition, vision at scale has to outlast what you do and what you're creating. And at NCTD, you've been pursuing a zero emission fleet by 2040 and potentially the first hydrogen-powered rail system in the country. I'm curious how that's going and how do you hold vision that big when the timeline extends well beyond your tenure?
Shawn:
Yeah, I think that's always tough. I remember having that conversation with Leanne when I left C-TRAN and my only request was, "Don't take my names off the plaques out front." And she laughed and she said, "Don't worry, the second you're gone, we'll grind those off of there." But I remember telling her, "My legacy is my legacy and I'm not here anymore. So it's your legacy now. Now, in theory, here's the things that we've done that I would prefer remain intact only from the standpoint of how we chose to manage the organization."
I think some of the long-term decisions are a little more different. Here, when we talk about zero emission, there are mandates that came from the state, oftentimes they're very much unfunded and very undervalued. I mean, they're great soundbites, but they hold no weight without money or intentionality of how we're going to do these things. And I think that's kind of the space we're in right now. We really want to be on the cutting edge of the future of fuels around here. The problem is it's extensively expensive and we are getting very little support from the state on that.
And I think there are a lot of good people that work at the state that are trying to help us solve this problem, but that really resides in the purview of the elected officials we have in Sacramento and from the governor's office. And while I appreciate that transportation's not the only thing they have to deal with today, it's important that you can't just make these unfunded mandates. You can't just say things like 2040, and then somebody's like, well, if I do this, my fuel cost goes up three times what it is now, and I may have to reduce my service just to be a healthy steward of the environment.
And so you really have to align what is realistic with what's not and be very forceful about whether that's going to work or whether it's not going to work so that when you're gone, somebody doesn't look back and go, "Oh man, Shawn was the one that screwed that up." I'll take a couple of those, but I'm not going to take [inaudible 00:34:32].
But yeah, I think long-term, you always have to have the vision of what is the risk-reward? What really are you trying to accomplish and who really is in the tank with you to support that? And I think early on, we definitely felt like we had the support of the state. Then under the current administration, we've had some issues with funding from the federal level, a little bit of back and forth between the federal government and the state government, and that's impacted our ability to potentially get long-term sustainable transit funding.
So we're working through those things and we've got great elected officials that I think see our vision and hopefully can push those through. But that's tough sometimes, especially when you're thinking 15 years out. And I always try to shrink those down. Whatever they want to do in 2040, I want it done by 2030 or 2035. Just get it done and move on to the next thing. And what I've found is that that's becoming increasingly difficult for our industry just based on a lot of different factors, but we'll get there.
Carol:
Yeah. And I could see that, the external thing versus the internal. And when you're leading a multimodal agency, execution can often live and die in delegation and handoff. So I'm curious from that perspective across operations and maintenance and planning and customer service and security, where do you intentionally push decision-making down into the organization? And how do you build the capability and confidence for your people to truly own the outcomes that they're executing on so that it's not on you, I know you said your name's on a lot of things, but really it takes a team, it takes a group? So how are you intentionally empowering people to be able to have the confidence to take ownership of some of the things that you have set the vision for?
Shawn:
Yeah. One of the things we actually did fairly recently, I guess it's been about eight months now, maybe nine, in July, we insourced all of our bus operations. We had a contractor that was working with us. And it was nothing against the contractor, they were good agency. That organization's been around for a long time. We had insourced our rail operation about two or three years ago right before I got here and bus was kind of the last piece of that. And I think the thought process was if we really want to own what these outcomes are going to be in the face of potential fiscal issues two, three years down the road, we have to have total control of the organization so that our employees are the ones who are empowered to make decisions.
So we onboarded about 500, a little less than 500 employees, literally overnight. We had been working on it for seven, eight months, but on June 28th, we onboarded right around 500 employees. And that brought our organizational total to right around 1,000. And that was such a departure for people that worked here because now our human resources team is directly responsible for managing certain things for our employees and our operations teams are directly responsible. So instead of being facilitators, now they're doers. And I think we still struggle a little bit with like, "Hey, where's my autonomy zone? Am I okay to make this decision? Do I need to run this by you? Do I need to run this by the chief?"
And I think the lessons we keep going through almost monthly are, "Hey, manage your crucial conversations." We just started a crucial conversation program for our managers through our learning and development department. So every other week we bring in a new group of managers and we're like, walk through crucial conversations. What are you trying to have a conversation with employees about? Why are you doing that? What decisions are specific to your group that you can make? What decisions can you make but maybe you should let us know about?
And that's kind of been the hardest part, is do I need to run everything by you? No. But then they won't run something by somebody and somebody's like, "Hey, what the heck, man?" And it's kind of just sort of managing this new world, this new expectation of what should you be telling us and what should you be managing on your own?
And it's been kind of fun for me because coming from operations, I was really able to just sit them all down and say, "Look, here's things you should probably let me know about. Here's things you shouldn't. Go do these things on your own." I'm not going to be mad if something gets messed up. I just want to know that it's, one, going to get fixed, and two, that if it affects employees, we're going to make it right. I don't expect everyone to walk every day at 110% excellence. That's just not going to happen.
And we have an amazing team out there that does a great job. They're a little overwhelmed right now, they got a lot going on.
Carol:
Yeah, with 500 new people.
Shawn:
I try to slide in there periodically and let the managers and our directors know like, "Hey, it's going to be okay. Everybody calm down." They were really worried about, in fact, this was kind of an interesting conversation we had with them. Right before the transition happened, they were laser focused on it's got to be perfect. And so a month or month and a half before the transition, everybody's nerves are on edge, people are building a little silos a little bit. It's a lot, there's a lot going on. Is the department really getting things done because that impacts me and what's going on?
And so we just put everybody in room and I said, look, it wasn't supposed to be perfect. The goal on June 28th is that people who worked there on June 27th work here on June 28th and that they're going to get paid on July whatever. And as long as we're operating under that assumption, we're good. All the stuff that we want to do, we'll figure that out over the next six to 12 months.
Carol:
Wow.
Shawn:
It's not going to be perfect today. It wasn't designed that way, it wasn't supposed to be that way. The only thing that needs to be perfect is our paperwork and checking driver's licenses and making sure that our buses have the right decals on them for our federal motor carrier requirements. That's it, y'all. It'd be fine. And I think-
Carol:
How'd that go over?
Shawn:
It went really well. I think we sort of realized, okay, here's the list of five things that I really have to focus on instead of this whole new world of stuff. All these staging procedures and this thing, no, we'll get to that. We will get to that. We just need everybody to start working on June 28th. So just get to there. They know what they're doing. They've been doing it already under another organization. All they're going to do is come to work on Sunday under a different name. That's it.
Carol:
Yeah. That's amazing. And I mean, that's what's an important thing of leadership is to give people, here's what you really need to be focused on. So not all of this but this in order to achieve what we have to do. So I'm sure that was a big relief hearing that from you.
Shawn:
Yeah, I could tell people were really struggling with some of it. And I'm just like, "Look, there's things you should struggle with and things you shouldn't. And if things you shouldn't, get them off your plate right now because it's going to consume the time you need to focus on the things that need to get done."
Carol:
Yeah. Well, as you said before, clarity matters and giving them that clarity, I'm sure it made a big difference.
So I'm curious, as you think about the future of transit, the next 12, 24 months or beyond, the things that may reshape how transit operates. I don't know how much you're digging into AI or workforce shifts or funding pressures, as you talked about, or rider expectations. What are you experimenting with right now that you believe will matter most as you think about modernizing the transit industry in the future?
Shawn:
Yeah, I think AI is a big one. I think what we've learned here is that AI is only as good as the people who review the data that goes into AI. We've seen that happen a little bit in our industry already where they made this plan and they're like, "Wait a minute, we don't do any of that stuff. Where did AI get that from?"
We definitely incorporate it into how we want the customer experience to be. We're really laser focused on what our website looks like and things that have not been updated in a long time. What does that user experience look like down the line? Safety and security is a huge one for us. We've invested a fair amount of our budget into making sure safety and security is coming back, really sort of restoring the social norms that I think have been pulled away from public transit for years.
And I've been pretty hard on that. One of the things that I have pretty famously said at every agency I've ever worked very publicly is I think public transit gets asked to lower social norms that don't exist anywhere else. And the people who are directly impacted by that are regular users of the system who don't have any other alternatives to transit. And so once we make that social norm change and we say, oh, we want to be lenient on this thing, or we want to do this differently, or we want to not deal with safety and security the way we should because we're getting political pressure on that, I think there's ways to manage those things respectfully where the rider appreciates it. And what we find more often than not is specifically people in disadvantaged communities are the ones who are impacted the most because they are daily users of the system, and they're sort of holding whatever decisions are made to not hold true to social norms through public transit.
And so I've always been very hard on that. We don't do advertising on the external pieces of our equipment here. Same thing we did at C-TRAN. And to me, you have to manage your brand. Your brand has to be synonymous with great employees, community values and safety and security. And that's all community values. That's not just one group that exists over here. It's every single group that exists in those communities, they have to be represented through that brand.
Presence on our transit modes to do fair enforcement and manage safety and security. Look, we're not trying to take anybody to jail for fair enforcement. We're not trying to run people off the bus. We're not trying to do that. All we're saying is that there's a standard to being a part of this community. There's a norm that exists that every single person that lives in this community should feel like they have a right to be around. And we have to make that a known quantity in order to sustain what we want long-term.
And our daily riders really appreciate it when I go out in the system and talk to them, and I ride all the time that I always ask them like, "Hey, how's safety and security?" And a lot of our folks are like, "Hey, I feel very safe here. I feel like if I need assistance, I can get it. I don't feel like there's going to be any issues." We've got a lot of folks around here, especially on the east end of the county that use our rail to get their kids to school and then use it to get to work. And that's exactly what we want. We want our users that have to use the service to feel like, okay, I'm going to get on this train and everything's going to be cool. And I think our team's done a really good job of that.
Carol:
I really appreciate that. I know you've talked about that, community values and transit being job and education and healthcare and values and riding with your riders and getting that information and seeing what they're experiencing and hearing their voices and making sure it includes all, is just such a powerful vision and framework to use to really support the work that you're doing within the industry. And something I think as you look to the future of industry is going to be something that's going to be even more important as we move forward.
I'm curious, just in closing, if you could leave every leader listening with just one shift, one practice or mindset shift to be more people forward in their work, what would it be?
Shawn:
Know your own weakness. I can only speak myself, I'm aware that I have weaknesses. I'm aware that when I look in the mirror every day like, "Hey, we should probably work on that." I'm also aware that there are times I look in the mirror and go, "I should work on that, but I'm not going to." Am I going to stop going to Pizza Hut on Fridays? Probably not.
And I really think that the good leaders, the ones that are very effective and the ones that I've been fortunately a part of are ones that are very thoughtful about their interactions with employees. And that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be all pie in the sky. It just means they're very thoughtful and intentional about their interaction with all employees.
One thing that I remember having a conversation about with a leader of an organization that I worked for years ago was, they were not very happy that as the director of operations, I spent a lot of time having conversations with members of the workforce that weren't work related. When I would go out and talk to operators, I would say, "Hey, how was your kids' game on Friday?" Or we had a lot of operators that would come up, give me a hug or high fives and stuff, and that really bugged that leader. And I remember them saying, "Hey, this is going to be your downfall later." And then I remember another leader telling me that worked for that leader saying, "No, don't change that."
And it's not for everybody. You don't necessarily have to be an extrovert all the time. I mean, when I'm at home, I'm an introvert and I'm an extrovert at work. But I think you have to be very thoughtful about your interaction with employees and have real conversations with them like, "Yeah, I screwed that up."
The biggest value I ever got coming through the ranks was when I had to stand in front of 300 employees and say, "Hey, I screwed that up. I thought it was going to be a good idea. The results that we thought we were going to get did not happen and we immediately need to course correct. So you tell me what you think we can do to modify this issue that we have and we'll see if we can figure it out." And I think employees really, I think they appreciate that. They may not like it, but I think they appreciate when somebody just says, when you make a mistake, you just got to own it.
And you got to be fairly public about it, because I remember telling somebody this one time, they'll either make fun of you about this for the next 10 years, which means they love you, or they'll always remember the time you screwed up when you write them up and they'll hate you. You have the choice to decide, do you want to get ribbed a little bit for the next 10 years over the mistake you made, but they respect your position and they respect the things you do? Or do you want to really fight this thing and get mad because people are chuckling in the clubroom about it? And then you'll always be that guy. And you have the choice to determine how you're viewed in the future.
And I think we have to make a lot of tough decisions throughout the daily course of our careers. And especially at the CEO, deputy CEO, executive staff level, I mean, there's just a lot of tough decisions that have to be made. And I think the number one thing that I think people need to do is no matter how important the business is, you have to make sure people understand what you're about and where you're coming from and that you're approachable.
I remember getting asked, I'm part of the Leadership APTA Committee that brings the next level executives through and they go through a whole year of class. In fact, Leanne was in it last year, And they have all these conversations about leadership. And a few of us, there's five or six of us that are part of the committee. We go to all their meetings and they ask a lot of questions and do stuff. And I remember the question I got asked the most was, "Tell me the greatest thing that you've done in your career. You built these BRTs and the streetcar and these rail lines and all this stuff, tell me which one that was the best."
And I said, "It was none of those." I said, "It was watching people that I worked with that I respected more than life itself. They were part of my personal life team and my professional life team get promoted to deputy CEO, get promoted to CEO, become the best version of themselves, the part of themselves that they should have been the whole time, or they should have been the whole time." And that's what drives me. The daily stuff is what we're required to do. We got to do that stuff. I'm bigger than the other things.
And I think leaders, kind of what you had mentioned earlier about the changes in our leadership at the transit level, you're starting to see a lot more of that. You're starting to see the emotional intelligence in the room change dramatically. You're starting to see people want to have very gloves off, real conversations about things that impact us, things that impact specific groups within our communities and how we can help those individuals out and how we can support each other. And that hasn't always been a thing in any of the industries I've been in. So it's really nice to see that in real time.
Carol:
Wow. I mean, there's a lot to unpack there, but I love how you started with know your weaknesses and be honest about what you're going to do about those. But also I heard you say know yourself, be yourself and love upon your people, know them and really consider your people. And as you look at your legacy, it sounds like one of the most important things in your takeaway is what you've done and how you supported and elevated and been there and created space and an environment for your people to be successful, in addition to all the other amazing things you've done. But those are pretty powerful takeaways.
Shawn:
Yeah, I've been really lucky that just the right people have been around me at the right times. And at some point in time, they felt the same way I did about their career trajectory. Every once in a while, we had to point them in the right direction. But for the most part, that's the thing for me that when I wake up in the morning and I think, man, today's going to be a rough day, I know I'm going to get to come in here and joke around with my chief of staff and laugh with our DCEO and run down the hall and talk to Alex about what he's dealing with today. And those things just sort of take away from all the stuff that's happening in real time that keep you up at night, keep you kind of not sleeping.
But yeah, it's been a great ride. There's more to come, but man, it's been good.
Carol:
Yeah. Well, listen, Shawn, thank you so much for sharing your leadership and your perspective and all the things that, what it really takes to build trust, accountability, and resilience in such a high stakes environment. Thank you so much for being here.
Shawn:
Thanks for having me. I'm such a big fan of the work you do, all the conversations we've had before. When I got the email, I was like, "Yes, I totally got to do this." So appreciate everything that you and your team are doing, and thanks for having me on.
Carol:
Thank you. Thank you. And listen, to everyone listening, if today's episode gave you a practical shift you can make this week, share it with another leader who's caring a lot right now and share this episode with them so they can get some of the tidbits that Shawn shared with us today. Until next time, keep leading people forward and I'll see you soon.
