Carol:
Welcome to the Midlife Career Rebel. The podcast created for high achieving professional women to gain the clarity, confidence, and courage they need to go after and get the life and career they want. I'm your host, Dr. Carol Parker Walsh, lawyer, social scientist, brand strategist, executive coach, entrepreneur, and midlife career rebel. Each week you'll learn strategies to manage your mind, navigate the challenges of midlife and take control of your career, so you can thrive doing the work you love. So if you're ready to tear up that rule book and create your own, you're in the right place and I can't wait to show you how.
Carol:
Hey, hey rebels. This is Dr. Carol Parker Walsh bringing you an exciting episode. We are interviewing, actually a dear friend of mine, Dr. Charlotte Jones Burton, who has done some amazing things in her career. And I'm excited this season to not just talk about the things that help you become a strong, powerful woman in midlife, in your career and making those choices that you need to make. But actually bringing women on who have made some of those powerful decisions at midlife. Who have charted their own course and set their own path, and been able to step into new realizations of things that they want to do in their lives and careers. So I'm excited that Charlotte is here today, to talk a little bit about her own journey. So let's get started. Charlotte, I would love for you just to quickly introduce yourself and let the people know who you are and all the amazing things about you, that I already know, that other people should know as well.
Charlotte:
Well, first, Carol, let me say happy new year to you and thank you so much for having me on your podcast. I'm looking forward to our conversation and hope that some of the words that I may say today will resonate with your listeners. As you mentioned, my name is Dr. Charlotte Jones Burton. And when thinking about who I am, I always like to start by telling you, why am I on this earth versus going through a list of accolades and hopefully it'll be brief. I'm really here to have impact and what I believe my purpose is, is to create healthier communities through some of the things that I do, that happen to elucidate who I am.
Charlotte:
So one, I really am working in the pharmaceutical industry. So when I say creating healthier communities as a physician scientist, I make medicines for people who have serious diseases. So that's one thing that I do. The other thing is advocating for patients, which as a physician, that probably will not shock anyone. And then the last thing that I do, and I'm sure we're going to spend a lot of time talking about this. Because I believe that there's no one person that does anything by themselves, is I empower people and engage people to live their best lives and have the impact that they would like to have.
Carol:
I absolutely love that. Thank you for sharing that, because I often talk about that, who we are is not out what we do. We're so much bigger than that and when we know who we are, when we know what our purpose is. When we lean into what matters to us and the impact that we want to make in the world, that the possibilities of what you can do become endless. Right. That they just expand beyond the parameters of just one job title, or one job, or even one career. And so I love that description and I think that is brilliant. That knowing who you are and what you want to do in the world really guides you.
Carol:
So in line with that, I know you have your quote unquote day job that you do as a physician, as a scientist, a researcher who is changing the lives in the pharmaceutical industry with the work that you're doing there. But I also know that you founded an amazing organization called Women of Color in Pharma, or WOCIP, that is affectionately called. And I would love to hear about that, because it started off, I remember... Just full disclosure, Charlotte, and I have known each other for a while and we're in Paris talking about this idea that she had. And it was a beautiful idea and something that was passionate for her, that has just really expanded into something absolutely amazing. And I would love to know, to hear your side of your story about where WOCIP came from, and how you started it, and what was your vision, and where it was and where it is now.
Charlotte:
Yeah. Thank you for that and that was an amazing trip that we had in Paris-
Carol:
Yes.
Charlotte:
So I still remember it fondly. So WOCIP, as you mentioned, Women of Color in Pharma, is a non-profit organization that I created with the intent of empowering women of color, like myself. Who are in the pharmaceutical industry to really take control and be the CEO of their lives, to seek their own personal and professional development. So they could have that impact that I talked about as I was telling your audience a little bit about myself and why would I want to do that.
Charlotte:
Well, I have this vision that in order for us to transform the industry and really this industry is focused on, as I've mentioned, creating medicines and vaccines. We are in the midst of a pandemic, diagnostics for patients who have serious diseases, it really is for all patients. So how do we ensure that we transform our industry so that all patients, including black and brown people globally, can have access to things that will impact health outcomes. So as I mentioned, it's not something that one person can do alone and so WOCIP is what I created, so that I'm not the only one working on this vision that I have.
Carol:
I love that. And so you had this idea, you had this vision, and how did you take it from just the thought and idea into what it is today?
Charlotte:
Well, the first thing that I'll say is, I never imagined what we have today in terms of the organization, would be what it was. I'm a big thinker, I'm visionary, so I really just said, "Hey, this is what I think we need to do, in order for me to reproduce other people who are mission driven like myself, and we need to come together." There was a problem that I was trying to solve, because when I came into the industry, I felt like I was an outsider looking in. And I really sat for two, three years, really not understanding and not having impact and so time was wasted.
Charlotte:
And so I wanted to make sure that someone else, like myself who came into the industry, would not have that experience. And so that's a smaller part of the complicated puzzle that I wanted to solve and that's where I started. So I started with something very simple. I had a vision as I've articulated, but I started simple trying to solve a problem. It was an everyday problem and that was a magnet for other people to join, because they said, "Hey, look, I have that same problem." And if I come together in community with other people who are like me, that will help me. That really is the beginning of the journey and it has blossomed into what we have today.
Carol:
So how old is WOCIP now?
Charlotte:
So WOCIP is, I mean, technically we started in my family room in 2015. So that is-
Carol:
How many women?
Charlotte:
There were about 25 of us, my family room's not that large. So we started in my family room in March of 2015 and we had our first annual conference in 2017, and fast forward, we just had our fifth annual conference in November of 2021.
Carol:
So 25 women in a living room and at your last conference, how many women? I mean, what's the membership now, the attendance now?
Charlotte:
Yeah. So the organization, we have over 9,000 in our network, we have 900 paid members, 30 corporate sponsors. And at our last conference, we did a hybrid conference because of the pandemic. We had approximately 80 people in person, but we had over 700 who had registered to join us virtually.
Carol:
Wow. That is so powerful. So when you sit back and think of going from an idea to this global organization, because you have members around the world, it's not just in the US. I mean, WOCIP is international. How does that feel? What does that mean for you, in terms of the impact and the realization of your dream?
Charlotte:
Well, I'll tell you, I often don't pause to reflect, but it's been a reflective season for me, the past few weeks. And one of the things that started did the reflection is, we had at that conference in November our first ever gala, where we gave awards and I didn't know this, but I was given the first Global Icon Award. And when you ask the question, how does it feel to create an organization? I think that was the first moment that I paused, I kind of stopped and I said, "This is changing lives." And although that's what I set out to do, I said, "I want to have impact." It's very humbling to be...
Charlotte:
My mother always said and probably my grandmother said, "Give me my roses while I'm alive." And so that was a, give me my rose type of moment, where I really sat back and it just blew my mind, to not only have the award given to me, but the forethought that had to go into it. And then seeing, I said, "The mission of the organization is for women to take control and actually develop themselves." So I was able at that event, because our members and the leaders that I've been working with, were the ones who were on stage, presenting the awards and talking about the organization, and the poise and the way in which they ran the entire event was absolutely amazing. So it is humbling and I'm honored to have the responsibility, because it is a responsibility. I'm honored to have the responsibility of leading the organization.
Carol:
I mean, you have taken side hustle to a whole nother level.
Charlotte:
All right. It's on steroids.
Carol:
It's totally, it's on steroids. So many people have ideas, or visions, or things that they want to do, or dreams that they want to have, or step into in their career. I talk a lot about mindset on this podcast, and how we have to really manage our thoughts, and really become the CEOs of our lives and to take control of what it is that we want to step into. That's what we do in the Rebel Academy and that's what we talk a lot about in this podcast. And I know that fear of the unknown, or getting it right, or just mindset stuff in general, can really hold women back from going after what they want and stepping into that next iteration of their life and career.
Carol:
When you were going through the process, because you didn't have to do this, you have a fantastic and amazing career. You could have just brought people together and just connected monthly and did something, but you really had a vision for something bigger and were able to inspire other women to join with it. But through that process, did you ever struggle with... How was your mindset? Was there moments of you're like, "What am I doing?" And things of that nature. If so, how did you keep moving through and overcome that?
Charlotte:
Yeah. Well, what I would say is, I never doubted myself. I always have the mindset, if not me, then who? And if I see that there is a problem that needs to be solved and it fits within my value system and my mission, then if not me, then who? So I think that's the first thing and I find that people don't know what their why is, why they're here, and they don't even know what their values are. I mean, I don't know if you remember in Paris, but we were going through what my values were, because I believe that's where you have to start. You really have to do the work and so once you're grounded and clear on your why, that I believe was the thing that gave me the confidence and the courage. That the way in which I was moving was aligned with my values, my core values. And then after that I think that, and I mentioned earlier, no one person does anything alone. Then I had to just identify people who could be with me and go on this journey with me.
Carol:
Love it. You are speaking my language, because I believe so strongly. So often people focus on the external stuff first, of what they want to have and get to, and they forget there's so much internal stuff that they have to work through. So I love what you said about, first of all, knowing why you're doing it to begin with and letting that be a strong driver. And then really making sure that it was a value alignment in terms of what you do, because I always talk about you, it's not about balance, it's really about alignment. What you do, your career alignment, life alignment, because it's just one part of the whole ecosystem of you. So it's important to have that connection, but also not doing it alone. Community is so powerful and we could go so much further together, than to try to go it alone.
Carol:
So what do you think is some of the biggest challenges that women have around going after that, around taking that time to get their why, to understand their value alignment? So many people just go through and like I said, they focus on the external or they're just on autopilot, and they just don't stop and do that work. That we had the luxury to do together in such an amazing place in the world. But what do you think are some of the biggest challenges around women doing that and stopping to answer those questions for themselves?
Charlotte:
Yeah. I think that one of the biggest challenges is, women want to help others and their nurturers, to the extent of really killing themselves and not, as you mentioned, pausing to work on self. I do think that that's a part of working on self, doing the internal work, really being reflective and coming up with what would make you happy? I think that is the biggest thing that I see people don't do. They don't want to sit with themselves and when I did it, I mean, there was some ugly stuff that came up and you have to work through that. So I think that that's the big thing.
Charlotte:
The other thing that I see is, I see a lot of fear and I believe that comes from a need or a desire, or maybe it's even a society that has said, "As women you have to be a certain way." Consciously, you have to be better than, you have to be perfect. There's data, this has been studied in terms of women, that by the time we get to 12, 13 and you compare girls to boys at that point, you begin to see the confidence has suffered, whereas in earlier years, you don't see that.
Charlotte:
So I think there's a societal component, the way in which it shows up in women, is that it prevents some women from moving forward and jumping, for example. Because there is this intense internal questioning always, of is this the right thing to say? Is it the right thing to do? Or talking yourself out of doing it, because what happens if you fail? It resonates with me, you're either winning or learning. So a failure is an opportunity for you to learn and you can fail your way forward.
Charlotte:
And so I think that one of the things that prevents women from going after their dreams, I'm not sure this was my dream. But as you've mentioned, it's a big side hustle and it's definitely my vision, but what will prevent women from going after that, is the fear. And then I think the last thing that I would say is, breaking things down to its simplest form is so critical. I think that we have a tendency to overcomplicate things and that prevents people from achieving.
Carol:
Yeah. I love that. A recent newsletter I sent out, was about falling in love with failure. That we really have to, it's the currency almost, the pathway to any type of success is that you're going to trip and fall, and we have to expect it. And I think we're so afraid of it, even though we've experienced it and lived through it before, but the idea of it can really kind of keep you behind. And absolutely, I love that you mentioned the societal pressures and the narratives and the stories that just keep women held back. That prevent them from really moving forward and stepping forward, is so important. You mentioned that there were some struggles for you along the way, some things that you had to overcome. What kept you moving through it, to push through those things that you had to overcome and not just say, "You know what, I'm done?"
Carol:
Because I think when people do meet those roadblocks, sometimes people see that, they take it as a sign that, oh, I shouldn't be doing this or this is the wrong way to go. To your point, maybe make it too complicated and maybe overdramatize it a little bit. But for you on this process, from 25 women to a global, international organization that's doing some amazing, massive things that are impacting the lives of thousands and thousands of women around the world. What hurdles did you hit? You don't have to be very, you don't have to go into a lot of detail. But more importantly, what pushed you through them to say, "No, we're still going to move forward?"
Charlotte:
Yeah. One of the hurdles is that, because there is no book that came with this organization and yes, I'm sure there is a book about how to create a company or how to create an organization. But I believe that every organization is unique and one of the hurdles has been, how do we organize ourselves to get the work done? What model do we utilize? And I'll say, that we've reorganized three to four times and what has allowed me to move forward and do that is the mindset. The mindset that every time we need to change, we're learning something and then that is going to help us get to the solution.
Charlotte:
Because I said, "I set out to solve a problem." I have a strong belief that there is an answer out there to this problem and it is incumbent upon us as an organization to go after it, and we have to evolve as many times as needed to get to the answer. And we haven't gotten there yet and I don't know when we're going to get there, but what I do know, is that we're going to continue so that we can do it. So it's having grit, it's having a mindset that it can be done, and that we're the right people, and I'm the right leader to do it and pivoting when you need to pivot.
Carol:
Yeah. That is just gold. That's gold, because I often talk about getting away from this rigidity of the one way, the one thing that we've been talked to about it, internalized. That there is a path as opposed to no, let's try this, oh, that didn't work. Okay. Let's regroup and let's try something else. So having that agility and that fluidity and knowing that, like you said, it's not failing, it's learning and so we tried this, it didn't work. I often tell people that, the story I was telling my clients the other day that the cleaning product 409 Formula, if people remember that. I don't know if it's still out there or not. But the reason that it's called 409 Formula, is because it was the 409th formula that they got right to make that product.
Carol:
So a lot of people do start things and they quit so early, because they make it mean something about themselves that, "Oh, I must be a failure if this didn't work." As opposed to, "Oh no, I know I'm good. This process isn't working, so let me figure out how to make it better." I mean, that is just a lesson in any type of stepping into the career life you love, in terms of creating something that you want to do in the world. Is to know that the path isn't paved with just easiness all the time, but to embrace that there'll be challenges and that you still need to move around it. And I love how you talked about how mindset, it is so key, it's the key. To your point, to do that you took time, you said to really kind of think through this and reflect it.
Carol:
I know that a lot of women don't take the time, they don't see the value sometimes in the personal development, as well as the professional development. Right. We've been trained to go after the brass ring, to go after the accolades, to go after the stuff that looks good external. But to spend the time, to spend the money, to spend the investment in self, to really do this work, I always say it's an inner game and an outer game. Right. It's both what is going on inside, as well as what's going on the outside. So some of the biggest objectives I often hear from people and even working with a coach, or working with other people, or getting that support, I just don't have the time, or I don't want to invest the money. Did you come up with that, any issues around that and how did you overcome that? Or what's your advice for women when they have that type of mindset, or that type of objection around this kind of stuff?
Charlotte:
Interestingly, I didn't and it may be because I'm an only child. If you talk to my husband, he'll say, "That's the only child's way of looking at it." Or it could be that I had such a deep appreciation, because my mother was an entrepreneur and I watched the amount of time that she put into herself and into others. So I think those two things are reasons why those were not my challenges. But I do come in contact with a lot of women that I have to convince them, that you will need to invest in yourself, invest in terms of money, invest in terms of time. And it's really hard for women to do that, but that is a value of WOCIP.
Charlotte:
Self investment, it's at the top of the list, because I have encountered it with people so much. And when we're on the airplane, they say, "In the event of an emergency and the airbag falls down, put it on yourself first and then some else who may need it, who's with you." And that is such a hard thing for us to apply to our lives, our daily lives, but it absolutely has to happen. And when my son was maybe eight or nine, I really needed to do that, just invest in myself, because I felt as if I was losing myself. So I do try to impart on women, that it's so important to invest in yourself.
Carol:
Yeah. So for women who are, what advice would you give to them if they're sitting on the fence about putting themselves first, their careers first, to invest in themselves? To help move them forward in what it is that they see that they want to have in their life or career. What would you say to them to help kick them off the fence and get into gear?
Charlotte:
It's really simple. The first thing I would do is, I would say, "It's okay for you to want to do this and in fact, you need to do it, but it's okay." So it's that permission that I do think that sometimes as women we need. And the second thing I would say is, "Just do it." I mean, it sounds so cliche, but it really is. You're going to do it sometime, you're either going to do it now, or you're going to do it in 5 or 10 years when you look up and you still don't have what it is you desire, because you didn't do the work. So you're going to spend the next 5 years or 10 years not having it, when you can spend the next 5 or 10 years going after it. So just do it.
Carol:
That is fabulous. Yeah. I think for powerful, high achieving, smart women, we've normalized this idea that asking for help, getting support, taking care of ourselves, is a sign of weakness or something. That we're supposed to be too strong to do this self-care work and we have to shift I think that conversation and not normalize, not getting help, but normalize self-care, self preservation, prioritizing self and doing it. Because you're right, you can do it today or you could do it tomorrow, but how much better would it be to do it today. And not deal with all the suffering that you have to go through for the next few years, because you have it in your head that you're strong enough to take care of it by yourself.
Carol:
So I absolutely love that. So I just want to ask you, this is the Midlife Career Rebel podcast, and I always talk about being a rebel. That a woman who is a rebel is one who's not going to sit by and take the status quo. Who's not just going to follow the plan that everybody else has, but really finds her voice, finds her why, knows who she is and goes after what she wants to do. When you think about being a midlife career rebel, what comes up for you?
Charlotte:
In many of the things that you've mentioned are things that come up for me, which is challenging the status quo, not just going with what someone is telling you. I think that's really important, having the courage to use your voice, understanding your worth, and being willing to articulate that and actually use with words. And knowing when to say no, and when to leave when things are not lining up with either your values, or what you expected for yourself. And the one thing that I would add with it, and I think this is the WOCIP story, is bringing others along with you. It is not just about you, but thinking through who else within your sphere of influence can be a rebel just like you.
Carol:
Love it. This has been absolutely amazing. You are absolutely amazing and the nuggets and the wisdom that you have dropped are just gems of gold, that people could spend a lot of time just digesting and just thinking about. I would love for you to share where can people, if people are interested in being a part of WOCIP or learning about WOCIP. I know WOCIP also has a foundation that people can, if you're not in pharma, but you really want to contribute to the cause and the purpose of the organization. There's always ways I think to be able to be involved and really support the work that you're doing. How can people find more information and what would you suggest that they do to get started?
Charlotte:
Well, there are a couple ways that they can learn more about Women of Color in Pharma. Our website is one which is wocip.org, W-O-C-I-P dot O-R-G. The other way is we're on all the social media outlets. We have the most activity on LinkedIn, and we also have a group on Facebook, both for our professional society. And as you mentioned, we do also have a foundation and are looking for others who have a similar mission to join us in this journey.
Carol:
That's awesome and I will make sure all those links are in our show notes, so that you can easily find them. Dr. Charlotte Jones Burton, my friend. Thank you so much for being here today and sharing your wisdom.
Charlotte:
Thanks for having me.
Carol:
Absolutely. And listen, please, if you found some amazing nuggets from this particular podcast, I invite you to share them with family, friends and colleagues. Don't forget to find us at your favorite podcast location and subscribe the review and comment when you can. And as usual, have an amazingly rebellious week and we'll see you next time. Thanks for joining us.
Carol:
Hey, if you're loving what you're learning on the podcast, then you've got to come check out the Career Rebel Academy. It's where you'll get the individual help and support you need, applying the concepts of strategies you're learning here and so much more. You'll be joined by a community of other rebels, just like you and I'll be there as your guide every step of the way. If you're genuinely looking to change the course of your life and career, I promise you, this is the place you'll want to be. Just go to www.carolparkerwalsh.com/career-rebel-academy. I can't wait to see you there.