Carol:
Welcome to the Midlife Career Rebel, a podcast created for high achieving professional women to gain the clarity, confidence, and courage they need to go after and get the life and career they want. I'm your host, Dr. Carol Parker Walsh, lawyer, social scientist, brand strategist, executive coach, entrepreneur, and midlife career rebel. Each week you'll learn strategies to manage your mind, navigate the challenges of midlife, and take control of your career so you can thrive doing the work you love. So if you're ready to tear up that rule book and create your own, you're in the right place, and I can't wait to show you how.
Carol:
Hey, Rebels, welcome back. I am so glad you're here with our continual series of career rebel conversations. Today, I am so excited to have a friend, a colleague, a fellow sister of the academy with me today, a fellow entrepreneur. We have Dr. Cathy Mazak who is an academic writing coach for women. She's a tenured professor turned entrepreneur who is on a mission to help academic women and non-men change the culture of academia from the inside out one published and tenured professor at a time. Because when more women and non-binary folks, especially folks of color, are included in the conversation and actually sit at the table in those rooms where decisions happen, only then can start bringing down the racist patriarchy that keeps trying to shut us out of academia. I love that mission. I love that goal. Cathy, thank you for being here.
Cathy:
Yay, Carol. I'm so excited, yay.
Carol:
I would love to hear more about your story. I think it's just amazing. Having spent a career in academia, going on that path, I stepped out at associate professor level, when into academic leadership and became a director and associate dean and the like and walked away from that. I would love to hear your journey through academia because you reached tenured status-
Cathy:
Oh, yeah.
Carol:
... and decided to start a movement, a revolution for other academic women. I would love to hear more about your journey. What prompted the pivot for you?
Cathy:
Let me start the story at Michigan State where I met my wonderful partner and husband, Guillermo, who was studying there at the same time. We ended up doing our PhDs... Well, I met him there. We studied and graduated the same year. He's an animal scientist, and his dream was always to come and work in Puerto Rico making agriculture better here at the University of Puerto Rico MayagĂĽez, which is the only school in Puerto Rico, or it was at the time, where you could study a degree in agriculture. He's like, "This is what I want. I want to go back and give to my community." I was like, "Yes, this is awesome." I was like, "Let's go." My field of study is educational linguistics, so Puerto Rico is a beautiful and wonderful place to study language and bilingualism. We both got the dreamy dual tenure-track lines, one of us first and then the other. We were living the dream.
Cathy:
I got... Well, let's say we're living the dream for the first couple years. I'm sure any academics in your audience will be very familiar with the feeling of... and then budget cuts. So what seemed like was going to be like, "This is my 30 years, and I'm going to have a government pension. It's going to be nice and cushy and exciting also and I love the students and everything." The working environment deteriorated over time. First they were like, "Oh, you could go up for tenure except that we can't pay you the pay raise, so you're just going to have to sit at assistant until we have enough money. You can go on this wait list." It's a whole bunch of us.
Carol:
Wow.
Cathy:
It was my cohort, that we all went up. We got these nice letters that were like, "You would be promoted if we had the money. Meanwhile, you got to sit on this wait list," where we sat for years.
Carol:
Wow, wow.
Cathy:
So we should have been assistant professors. We should have had that pay raise. That didn't happen. Meanwhile, just over the years, and I'm talking about 13 years, I made it all the way to full professor in 13 years. I always loved the students and many of my colleagues, but the environment on campus got worse and worse. I'm afraid I'm going to put the wrong date, but when the la PROMESA, which was the law that was enacted to restructure Puerto Rico's debt, started to rule over the island, it installed a group of people who were like, "Well, University of Puerto Rico, you have to cut $500 million from your budget." It was just more cuts and more cuts. Basically, my career in Puerto Rico spanned over the financial crisis. I'm sure people in other states have... excuse me, in states in the United States, Puerto Rico is not a state, in state-run institutions have felt this as well. I know Alaska, Illinois, Wisconsin come to mind. It's really rough for everyone when that's happening.
Cathy:
In Puerto Rico we have a long tradition of student strikes. So when they try to put up the tuition for students, there was a long strike. There was this moment during the strike, I remember it really clearly... When students strike it means they close the gates and they camp by the gates so nobody can come in and work. It was pre-COVID, pre-very much online classes or anything. Online classes were actually considered strike-breaking, which at that point was against university policy.
Carol:
Wow.
Cathy:
So we're all just hanging out trying to keep our research going. We can't go on campus but also not giving class. I was in the bakery, and I was overhearing people talking about the university strike because it was front page news and it was always on TV because it was all 13 campuses were striking at the same time. Somebody was like, "Why are we paying the professors? Why are they using state money to keep paying employees of the university if the professors aren't getting classes?" I had this light bulb in my head that goes, "Oh, crap."
Carol:
Oh my gosh.
Cathy:
The two of us have our whole livelihoods in the university. If they decided, "We can't pay you or we're not going to pay you," there's no cushion because... Depending on your field, I guess, in some ways, but we think that university professors make enough money to be cushy and have reserves, but we didn't. We had [crosstalk 00:07:36].
Carol:
It's very different. The salary structure raises based on the profession or the subject matter area, what you're teaching.
Cathy:
We were living paycheck to paycheck comfortably but still living paycheck to paycheck. I was like, "Dang, if we even miss one paycheck, we can't pay our mortgage."
Carol:
Wow.
Cathy:
It just made me think I need to think of a way to bring in extra money. Well, I tried some different things, learned about this whole world of online courses and that there were people out there creating their own courses with their own structures. I was like, "Oh, I can do this. I'm good at this actually." Just brainstormed lots of different business ideas. They tell you to look at ideas for what people ask you about anyway, and people were always asking me, "How did you get your writing done? How'd you publish this boo and you're on a four-four? How'd you get this article out and do all this research and bring in grants and you're teaching a four-four?" So I decided that's what my blog was going to be about and kind of started building from there in 2017. I didn't build it as an escape route, but it ended up being one.
Carol:
Wow.
Cathy:
Earlier in my career... Well, I guess what I felt like was I was at the top of the pay scale. I had done a lot of the things I wanted to do. I founded a research center. I had brought in grant money. I was teaching the courses I wanted to teach. I tried admin, and I didn't like it. I was like, "Where can I go from here?" We're not leaving Puerto Rico. That was never on the table. So I was like, "There's nowhere for me to go." Then I started doing this blogging and creating these courses and coaching academics particularly academic women about writing, and I couldn't get enough of it. I was so jazzed about that. I didn't want to do my academic work anymore because I was so excited about the business.
Cathy:
Thankfully, was able to grow it to the point that it replaced my salary. Then thankfully as well, was able to take a leave without pay without having to quit my job. I could hold my position because hiring was frozen anyway, so I wasn't hurting anybody or hurting my department by holding on to my tenure line. In fact, I was kind of helping them to keep that tenure line until they unfroze the hiring. So I was able for two years to do a leave without pay, develop the business much to my husband's dismay because he was like, "Can't you do both things?" I was like, "Nope, I can't. I can't go back to doing that and do this, too." I finally resigned last summer, and this is what I'm doing.
Carol:
Wow.
Cathy:
So that's the story.
Carol:
That is so incredible. I love that you told that story because it's always a journey. People are so used to seeing the end result that they think, "Oh, you just woke up one day and decided to build a million-dollar business-
Cathy:
[crosstalk 00:10:58].
Carol:
... and not realizing that, no, it's a journey. It's a constant process of decision making that you have to take in order for you to get where you have to go. I know mindset is a big thing when it comes to... because you went through school. You're an academic. That's where you thought you would be, and that's where the plan was. Then, of course, things shift and change. I think what often happens is that... what holds a lot of people back is the fear of the unknown. You were already in the middle of a fear of the unknown in a lot of ways. When you stepped into this new venture and decided, when your husband was like, "No, do both," and you're like, "Nope. I've done it. [crosstalk 00:11:40] this," were there moments where you were like, "Oh, I don't know"? Was there this fear of what would happen to let that security blanket go in a way? What did you do to really do the mindset work to move past that?
Cathy:
There was absolutely fear. It's hard to take a leap even if you think, "I'm pretty sure that I can replace my salary. I can sustain what I'm doing and grow it enough to replace my salary." But at some point I was like, "I can't do both of these things," because the first two years when I was basically developing the business... The first year was really like a side gig where I was testing stuff and whatever. Then the second year was more in that... how can I really build...? I don't even want to use the word "scale" because I didn't even have a thing to scale. It was like, what is this business going to be and how can I-
Carol:
It's building the foundation.
Cathy:
Yeah, exactly. That was the second year. It was very scary to think about taking away that salary but truthfully... A couple things. One is I realized, and this is mindset work and also just a realization that I had, that the unstable thing was the tenure-track job. I think other academics can... If you really sit down and think about it, COVID showed us they can get rid of your department. I'm not trying to freak people out, but they can get rid of your department. They could combine your department with another department and get rid of your line. So even in a university that might seem super stable or an economy that might seem super stable, the idea that you will stay in that same tenure-track line for 30 years, I think, is becoming less and less probable, and certainly in my situation, I was like, this could disappear at any moment.
Cathy:
They were combining campuses, and they were trying to say, "Oh, well, we have an English major in RĂo Piedras, and we have an English major in MayagĂĽez, and we have an English ed major in Aguadilla. So why are we having three majors in different parts of the island? All the English majors should be in one place." Well, if they didn't choose MayagĂĽez, that was going to mean I was going to drive to San Juan for three hours every day. That was not something I was willing to do.
Cathy:
So I kind of realized the tenure-track job was the unstable thing. I have much more control over the business. So it was just a process, like you were saying, it's a process of development over time. It's a process of gaining confidence and continuing to gain confidence as a business woman and know that even today if everything disappeared in this current business, I know I could make whatever... I was making 85K, but I was bringing home 55K after taxes and all that stuff. I was like, I know that I can make 55K. At the end of the day, I know that I can do this no matter what. But that was a mindset change that happened over the course of years.
Carol:
I love what you said about that the unstable position was the tenured position because you are so right. If COVID has taught us nothing else, this pandemic, is that traditional employment positions are not stable, that people have downsized. Companies have closed. I know universities have closed and definitely have consolidated departments or got rid of departments. So people have felt it across the board. There's so much instability and unpredictability still that we're in right now. So I love that what you saw was that the position was unstable but that you were. You, within yourself, that you knew what you could do. I always say as an entrepreneur, you get to create your own economy. That's exactly what you were able to do if you trust and believe in what you have to bring to the table. I love that. I love that. For my Rebels out there listening who are thinking about, "Can I take my side hustle to another level?" I love the thought actually the paycheck that you think is stable is really the gamble more so than the business, which is amazing.
Carol:
What do you think are some of the biggest challenges that really hold women back from going after the career and lives that they really want? I love that you started off saying that you were loving these conversations around writing and helping these women and finding that joy and passion. I think it's fabulous that you did that because I think so many people don't even explore those other aspects of themselves and their talents and gifts that could be amazing. You were teaching linguistics. You're in that department. I'm sure you were good at it and loved it. But then you found something else too that you were talented at and good at and loved that was all wrapped up, and pulling that out and finding that is so amazing. What do you think is some of the biggest challenges women have for leaning into those gifts and innate talents and figuring out which one of them they really want to maybe lean into and going after doing more of that in their lives and careers?
Cathy:
I think that especially women and I would say women and non-binary people or women and non-men, [crosstalk 00:17:22] I get this just to be clear about who we're talking about, you think that you are your job title. You're not your job title. You're you.
Carol:
Amen.
Cathy:
So whatever you're creating and doing within the structure of the job title that you're in, you could be creating and doing it under a different title. I call it a container. You create your own container, make your own business, and do it. There's lots of other places. Academics especially find it really hard to think that they have.... I see this all the time. Academics saying, "I want to get out, but I don't know how my skill set transfers to some other job title." What I want people to think about is, what is your unique creation in the world, and what do you want it to be? There's a million different ways you could create that. Find a job title that fits or make your own container through which to do it.
Cathy:
It takes a lot of confidence. It does take a lot of confidence and self-trust to say, "Yeah, I have something unique to offer in the world," but I imagine that the people listening to this podcast are just those people who are like, "I know got a something going on here, and I just got to figure out how to make my career line up with my level of awesomeness," even if you're thinking about your level of awesomeness privately to yourself because you don't want to say it too loud.
Carol:
Which women mostly do.
Cathy:
I think women especially, we fought so hard to even get access to these spaces. If you think about how long it's been that women have even been in academia, getting PhDs, and then becoming professors, it's not that long. So to then say, again, to women... and also this is the only way that you can be an academic. There's a ton of other ways, or the only way that you can do you're work in the world. There's a ton of different ways. It's also hard to hear, "I just got in here. I was just being successful at this thing." But really I think people need to think, "I am worth putting in the time and the thought and the self-reflection to figure out what the heck I'm going to do with my precious life."
Cathy:
I wasn't going to sit in... I wasn't going to keep being in a place that was literally holding me back at every stage. I think part of the reason I love the business is because it unleashed a creativity in me that the container of the university wasn't letting me live out. I do think, in my coaching... Let me say, though, I don't coach people out of academia. I coach people in academia. It's not that I don't think you... I actually really believe and I want people to understand that you can change your job. They call it job crafting. You can craft your job. You can change your position and your job. I decided not to. I decided actually I had done as much as I could in that container, and I was going to create a new container. But I think that people really need to understand that their great gift or their great contribution could come out and be realized in the world in so many different ways not just by a certain job title.
Carol:
So much gold. I love that. That is so true. Similarly, I coach women who are in the corporate space or in their current workspace, and you don't have to leave. But if you tap into, like you said, your values and your worth and all of the innate gifts and talents that you have and to pick the one or to pick the things that you really want to realize and put forth, you can create your own space. Or if you decide to latch out and do something different, that's a possibility, too. So I love that. I love that.
Carol:
You mention that your husband was like, "Can't you do both?" I know that there could be people who maybe don't want you to do something different. How do you handle reactions from family or friends or other people saying, "What are you doing? Oh my god, you have such a good thing. Why would you move and do something different or, quote, unquote, throw it all away"? All the well-meaning people who are just throwing fear, doubt, and everything at you, how do you handle the reactions of people close to you who are not 100% on board with the decisions that you're making for yourself and your career?
Cathy:
For my dear husband, I just keep bringing home the money. He's like, "Just keeping paying for things." He knows he's my biggest fan in terms of he's always been super supportive of all the wackadoo ideas that maybe I've had. But he's a liberal person politically and conservative when it comes to jobs and stability. So I just kept quietly... I wasn't up in his face. I just kept doing my thing and kept doing my thing. Finally, it was like, he just had to live with the fact that I was quitting. The good thing, again, is that I took two years of leave without pay where I was able to continue to demonstrate that I could hold up my end and exceed what I had been making before and that this was going to be our path to realize our family's dreams.
Cathy:
In terms of other people, I'll be 100% honest, sometimes I don't... It's like parents of kids at school, if somebody asks what I do, I'll say, "I'm a business owner." But a lot of people assume I'm still a professor because that's how they met me, and they don't know I've been secretly creating this thing. I just try to be honest and smile and be friendly and just be like, "Yeah." If I have to shut down a conversation and say, "Well, I've tripled my salary," then that'll shut it down. [crosstalk 00:24:15], "Well, since I've tripled my salary over the past two years, I feel pretty confident that we're going to be fine," because that's what people understand. That's what people think.
Cathy:
I think this is true in a lot of ways that people who start their own businesses are struggling. They're struggling. Thankfully, I've been able to do it without that struggling. It's taken time, and it continues to take time, and it continues to be a lot of learning. But I feel confident that if it ever stopped, if the business ever stops being able to pay me... I know people run businesses, and they don't pay themselves. I'm like, "Why? Don't know." It's like, that's really bad.
Carol:
Totally, totally.
Cathy:
So sometimes I do just shut down those questions with that. But it's hard when you say, "Oh, what do you do?" "I have an online business." People are like, "What's that? What are you doing?" "I do professional development for professors." They're like, "Okay." The truth is that people don't understand university professors either. They have an idea. They have a preconceived... They think you're a teacher of older people. That's [crosstalk 00:25:30]. So they don't understand. I had that struggle, too, that I'm not just a teacher. I'm a researcher.
Carol:
Well, I always say that people have a hard time seeing beyond their own limitations. So if they can't envision it for themselves, they can't envision it for other people. We just live in such a society where career titles, back to your earlier conversation, are just so important. Unless it's a title that people get and societally we placed values on certain titles so if it's a title that I don't commonly see or get or that type of thing, then everything else is confusing, and it's not good. So we live in such a binary society that it's either this or that, that people aren't open up to the possibilities of what you can do. I think that's when you see people stuck in careers or jobs or titles because of the naysayers or "What will people think?" or "They won't understand, and I don't want to have to explain," but missing out on living their best lives and having opportunities.
Carol:
There's a comic that I like named Katt Williams who said, "If you don't have haters, you're doing something wrong." So I say if you have people who are like, "What are you doing? That's crazy," you are on the right track. That's one way to look at it. What advice would you have for women who are on the fence about this, who are like, "Ooh, which way do I go? What do I do"? I know it's an individual choice, and you have to come to your own place. What words of wisdom would you give for a woman who's on the fence who maybe has done that due diligence and is ready but still not sure which way they should go?
Cathy:
I would say that you are the person you can trust the most in the world.
Carol:
Ooh, yeah.
Cathy:
If you can tap into that and really, really think, "Who's going to have my back more than me?" [crosstalk 00:27:24]-
Carol:
Good point.
Cathy:
... that you can trust yourself. You can trust yourself to follow that thread of what you're trying to create, and you can trust yourself that you will make a good decision even though society tells you that you are not worthy of [inaudible 00:27:45]. We [inaudible 00:27:48] back against that constantly and inside our [inaudible 00:27:52] as coming [inaudible 00:27:53] the outside. So I think it really is a matter of trust yourself. You're going to be able to do it because look at all that you've done before.
Carol:
I think that is so powerful. I think it's something that we're not taught as women to trust ourselves and to trust our own voice and to trust our own intuition. We talk about this, and I think we even met working with a coach together on our businesses. Where would you say having a coach really helped in terms of you learning to trust yourself, to trust your word, to believe in yourself? Because while I do think at some levels to achieve success, to be high performing and high achieving there has to be some belief in self, to go out of the box or to break free from the status quo or to try something unknown, it requires, to me, a little deeper level of trust outside of the norm. How would you say coaching helped you in that process?
Cathy:
Well, definitely coaching helped me with my mindset around what I could believe was possible. So that's one thing. The other thing is that I'm a really good student, so a lot of the kind of coaching I did and am still doing for the business was learning how to run a business, learn how to build a brand, learn how to launch your podcast, learn how to do all of these things. I know that I'm a good student, and I also have that desire to learn that I think a lot of entrepreneurs have but that definitely a lot of professors and academics have is, "I want to keep learning."
Cathy:
I was always willing to listen to experts about what I could do next. I've made some choices in terms of coaches that, when I look back I go, "Oh, I thought that was the right move, but it wasn't." But I still learned a ton. I enjoy having a coach because I find the pressure of being the CEO who's holding... Well, now I have employees and everything, so I have a team of five. I got to make revenue so that I can pay everybody and we can serve our clients the best that we can. It's nice to have somebody to help you through that, even if it's just a sounding board kind of person. Good coaches ask you to write questions so you can see that you already know what to do. I appreciate that coaching kind of relationship where I have somebody who can really direct me. They can offer their expertise, but then they are also pulling expertise out of me and helping me see that I do know what to do. But I like that. I really like having a coach.
Carol:
I do love that. That's what I've enjoyed about it, too. I also find that women struggle with seeking coaching. I think at some level there's a stigma about asking for help or thinking that you should know. To get a coach or to work with a coach means some type of signal that maybe you don't know or you're not on top of your game. I think people just have a really misconception around the benefit that can come from coaching. I always tell people to think about Serena Williams, she had a coach. Come on. If she can be coached, then why not me? Where do you think that comes from? If you come across that, how do you help women see this isn't a mark against you? This is in the plus column to actually get somebody on your side.
Cathy:
Well, I would say that for my audience it comes from this culture of academia, but I don't think that the culture of academia is that different than just patriarchy in general. It happens in businesses. It happens in a lot of spaces-
Carol:
Totally.
Cathy:
... which is we have this cultural belief in the self-made man and the bootstraps and the whole shebang. If you are walking around... In academia what it looks like is that professor burning the midnight oil with stacks of books and a tweed jacket. That person doesn't care about his body. He's eating microwave Hot Pockets or whatever. "Because the work, the work is so important, and I'm making discoveries," or whatever. Well, corporate isn't actually like that, and neither is academia. Everything happens in teams. Everything happens with support. But there's this cultural belief that it doesn't, and it's reinforced by who gets the accolades and awards and promotion. An individual person gets that.
Cathy:
So I think a lot of times there is definitely a narrative about if you ask for help, you're weak or stupid. That's compounded by being not straight, white male. If you're in any of those marginalized communities or socialized in ways that make you believe that you are in a space you're not supposed to be in, all of that contributes to that feeling of, "Well, if I ask for help, I'm going to reveal that I don't know what to do." That is the first part of vulnerability that's going to help you grow, but it's really hard. We have clients even who are like, "I don't want anybody to know that I'm in your program."
Carol:
Ah, I get that, too. Like, "No, don't tell anybody." I'm like, "What?"
Cathy:
I have clients, too, that we ask... We really try to encourage and develop this culture of wins that people can share wins big and small and all that stuff. We want to highlight people's publications in our newsletter because they go out to 24,000 people. Maybe more people will read your stuff. We've had people be like, "That freaks me out. I don't want to get that kind of attention," which I get. But I think it's indicative of being in a space where you're told you're supposed to do it by yourself and that you're supposed to survive on your wits and all that kind of stuff. It's a whole narrative.
Carol:
Oh my gosh.
Cathy:
But really what we need, we need the support of mentors who aren't in competition with us, and I think coaches can really be that kind of person. We need to develop self-mentoring and be able to trust our own voice instead of always looking up and out at other people to tell us what to do. That's why I love coaching because that, to me, is a coaching relationship is about, pulling your own self... developing your own self-mentoring with this other person that's going to help you get there.
Cathy:
Then in our programs, we really emphasize community and understanding that you think that you are the only one but you're not. We going to put you in this space where everybody's going to be like, "Oh my god, that's what I feel, too." That is something that's hard to create outside of group coaching. Even within university departments or professional organizations, sometimes it's hard to stop competing or to stop feeling like I can't be vulnerable here because vulnerability is going to be weakness. Then I'm not going to look like I'm the super star that I'm supposed to look like or whatever. In a coaching program, you can tap that vulnerability that's really going to help you grow.
Carol:
I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think you just really laid out the case and the issue at hand. I do think it's a design of the patriarchy. It's funny because I think at that level there is the white boys' network and club. They do give support. They do have contacts. There is a, quote, unquote, club where they can get the support and lean on each other. But I think they have shifted the narrative for marginalized communities, for women to keep us isolated from each other so we don't ask for help because it's so much easier when you're separated from the herd, if you will, to ostracize you, to take you out, to shut you down, and to ensure that you don't rise to success if you do it in isolation and not come together in the power of the community.
Carol:
The patriarchy understands the power of the community. That's why they want to make sure nobody else has the power of community so they put forth this narrative of, no, individualism, just you. Go for it. Don't get any help. We've kind of bought into that shit. It's so important to have... We understand what's going on around us. We understand the context in which we're in so that we can make decisions that are best for us and not in line with maybe what we've been taught or inherit to believe. Love that. So amazing. I have a question for you which I ask everybody on the podcast. What does it mean to be a career rebel? When you hear that phrase, what does that mean for you?
Cathy:
I actually love that phrase, so I'm very excited about this. I think for me and as we said at the top and we've said throughout, I'm really interested in saying, what's at work here is not just inside your head. It's also social. So when you are successful, Audre Lorde would be like, "My self preservation. My existence is a rebellious activity." That's how I feel about career rebels. A career rebel is somebody who is like, "I'm going to do what I want to do to be happy and successful on my terms in my career," not on other people's terms, not just climbing the ranks to climb the ranks, but to say, "What's my contribution to the world? How am I going to feel while I'm making that contribution and crafting a career around that instead of around the job title or something else?" I think that's really rebellious especially when non-binary people do it. That makes it extra rebellious.
Carol:
Yes, I love that. Frame it. Mark it. It's fabulous. Cathy, what's next for you? I heard that you have written yet another book. What's coming down the pike for you?
Cathy:
It's funny. The book has been hard because, even though I'm a writing coach, it's still not easy to write. This is my first completely... a book that just comes out of my head that's not an academic book. I'm just reading the subtitle for you because it's totally right in line with everything that we've talked about. My new book is coming out, it'll be released in e-book form in May and then will be in bookstores near you in September. It's called Making Time to Write: How to Resist the Patriarchy and Take Control of your Academic Career Through Writing with Morgan James Press. If you want more information and you want to make sure you hear about when that book is coming out, I can give you a link, Carol, to put in the show notes so people can get on a wait list for the book.
Cathy:
I'm going to be talking more about it in my podcast. I also have a podcast called Academic Writing Amplified that you can find on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. If you're interested in hearing more about the book, we would love to have you get on the book launch wait list. We're going to have lots of special prizes and things for people who pre-order and things like that. To get all of that information and be the first to order, we'll put a link in the show notes, too, where you can go.
Carol:
Love that. Yes, we will put all those links in so you can absolutely find them. Cathy, thank you so much for taking time out of your day to be on this podcast and share your amazing insights and wisdom with the audience. I know they're loving it. If I loved it, I'm sure they're loving it, too. So thank you so much.
Cathy:
Thank you so much for inviting me. It was so much fun.
Carol:
Yes, absolutely. Well, that's it for today, Rebels. I am so happy that you decided to join us. Please share this episode and the podcast itself with others who you know could benefit from the nuggets and insights that were shared by Cathy today. Don't forget to subscribe, leave a comment and review. As I said, we'll drop all of the information in the show notes so you can get on the wait list for the book, that you can listen to Cathy's podcast, and follow the amazing work that she's doing. Until next time, have an amazingly rebellious week. See you soon.
Carol:
If you're loving what you're learning on the podcast, then you got to come check out the Career Rebel Academy. It's where you'll get the individual help and support you need applying the concepts of strategies you're learning here and so much more. You'll be joined by a community of other rebels just like you, and I'll be there as your guide every step of the way. If you're genuinely looking to change the course of your life and career, I promise you, this is the place you'll want to be. Just go to www.carolparkerwalsh.com/career-rebel-academy. I can't wait to see you there.
