Carol:
Welcome to The Midlife Career Rebel. The Podcast created for high achieving professional women to gain the clarity, confidence and courage they need to go after and get the life and career they want. I'm your host, Dr. Carol Parker Walsh, lawyer, social scientist, brand strategist, executive coach, entrepreneur, and Midlife Career Rebel. Each week, you'll learn strategies to manage your mind, navigate the challenges of midlife and take control of your career so you can thrive doing the work you love. So if you're ready to tear up that rule book and create your own, you're in the right place and I can't wait to show you how.
Hey Rebels, welcome back to what I'm calling in season two, The Career Rebel Series, a conversation with gang changing women. And today we're to talking to Liz Bronson and Kathleen Nelson Troyer, the host of Real Job Talk, the Podcast for mid career professionals, seeking practical advice, inspiration and guidance. Combine these amazing women have over 20 years of experience in recruiting, HR, career coaching and so much more. And I've had the privilege and pleasure to be a guest on their Podcast and I'll drop the link as well as other things in the show notes so that you can check that out. And after spending time with them, I knew I had to bring them here to bring their wisdom and experience to you so you can learn so much more. And so without further ado, welcome ladies to the podcast.
Kathleen:
Thank you so much, Carol. We're so happy to be here.
Carol:
Thank you. I am so happy you're here. So I would love just for you guys individually and together to talk about like why you started the podcast and whoever wants to go first is totally fine, but Liz, I know you're a VP of people at SupportLogic and you're also the owner of Liz Bronson Consulting. And Kathleen, I know you have your own consulting practice as well and came out of a career doing so much in corporate space before you started your own. So I would love to hear a little bit about each of you all's individual journey and then coming together to create the Real Job Talk Podcast.
Kathleen:
Great.
Liz:
You want to see [inaudible 00:02:34] Kat, go for it?
Kathleen:
Sure. Okay. So I'm Kathleen Nelson Troyer, my friends call me Kat, so you can too. And I started my business Jigsaw Solutions in 2003. So it's just amazing to me that it's going to be 19 years this year.
Carol:
Wow. Congratulations.
Kathleen:
I'm going to have to do something big next year to celebrate.
Carol:
Yeah.
Kathleen:
It actually started as Jigsaw Staffing Solutions and about five or six years ago, I changed the title because I wasn't doing a lot of staffing. I'm doing much more organizational development consulting and leadership coaching and some career coaching as well. So most of my practice is working with corporate clients. Probably, I spend most of my time encouraging the leaders that I work with to have the necessary conversations, even when they're uncomfortable. A fair amount of time of this conversation needs to happen, how are you going to approach it? How are you going to be kind and direct and get the outcome that you want? I do other things too. I do 360-degree feedback and support my clients companies where they need support from the people side, but it's more people oriented than HR Operations.
Carol:
Got you.
Kathleen:
And I started eons ago. Yeah. I have more than 20 years experience personally. Liz has about that too, so we're probably combined 40 plus years experience but I don't want to date myself.
Carol:
Right. We'll say 20 plus.
Kathleen:
But I started in staffing, I started on an agency desk and moved over to corporate staffing couple years later, worked for companies like Charles Schwab and Barclay's Global Investors, where I met Liz in 2004. And that was... Liz has been such a blessing in my life and it's just so amazing that I get to work with her on a weekly basis with this podcast. It's been great.
Carol:
That is so awesome. Okay, Liz, what's your story?
Liz:
How long do we have? So I went to school to be an elementary school teacher. And after about two years of teaching, I said people are having fun in the city of San Francisco. I'm going to try that versus getting yelled at by snotty parents. So I found HR. My first job in HR was at Barclays Global Investors, where I met my dear friend Kathleen and learned so much from her. And I started in HR, did a lot of severance agreements after the.com bust, went into the happy side and wanted to give jobs versus take jobs and moved down the peninsula and hated driving up to the city. So I got a job at VMware when they were around 500 people and my husband actually was working there and introduced me and that's how I got the job. And I stayed there as a consultant the whole time for nine years.
And during that time I moved to Austin, Texas, I had two children. I had a husband who traveled a ton and I career flatlined but in a really good part of the business where I met a ton of leaders and was able to do a lot of influential, recruiting and consulting with them. I couldn't deal with the big company because it was so much process and not getting stuff done. And so I hung my shingle when one of my favorite leaders left and promised me a gig on the other side. And so, opened my own consulting business about almost nine years ago and worked with over 25 different companies in that time, a lot on the recruiting side, a lot on the HR side, helping early stage business, thinking about their people.
And towards the latter side, my kids were getting a lot older. They didn't need as much me of my time, they needed more of my direct attention. I started to year to go in house again. I missed being on a team, I missed being able to make decisions versus just recommend things. I missed that there'd be meetings. I'm like, "Why didn't you have me? Why didn't you pay me to bring up that meeting?"
So I started 2021. I was like, I'm good, I just put it into the universe and see if anyone bites. And I knew I had a really different background. I hadn't conned up the ladder like most people, but in early September started talking to SupportLogic, I knew some people there, I knew some of their advisors and after about a week of interviewing, they offered me the role to lead the people department. And I've been building an HR Department since September 30th and it's been... Well, I'm not bored anymore. I'll tell you that.
Carol:
I love that. Now I want you guys to talk about the podcast, but something you said really caught me, which was, "I went looking and I didn't climb the ladder." People would typically see but you still were able to identify what you wanted and brought all of your brilliance together in order to land this position. And I would love... You guys are OGs in the HR space, the recruiting space. Right? So, what would you say helped you to be able to pull teacher and HR, all the different things that you've done together in order for you running your own business, what you still do? But running that independently and then coming back into the space, going after something, most people are so set on this path and which I think is basically played out and not even the way to go anymore. How did you do it? And what would you advise to people who think, "Ugh, I only have one way to go to do what I want."
Liz:
So Carol, path didn't work for me because earlyish in my career I became a mom and I wanted to be a hands on mom and we moved to Austin. So I wouldn't have to go back to work full time right away because in the bay area I would've.
Carol:
Yeah.
Liz:
And I had a husband who was an awesome, is an amazing dad and super great but was traveling 75, 85, 90% of the time and I did not want to outsource parenting. For me, that was not... That didn't feel right. I also had two kids under too, so that was fun.
Carol:
Yeah.
Liz:
And so, I stayed at VMware, I was part... They let me be part-time which I'm forever grateful for, but that's what I could handle at the time because that wasn't my focus. And so, when I thought about my career, I knew that I was making the choices that worked for me at the time and figured I'd deal with the rest later. I knew what my potential was or thought I knew what my potential was, but I knew that I couldn't go for it and be happy.
And so what I would do, I aligned myself with really great people in the business, I showed that I could be that HR people advisor, I put myself in that situation. So when I was a consultant, they hired me. All my business came from ESXi VMware people, either referring or hiring me directly. But it was a very conscientious choice to flatline because that's what worked with my life. And then I figured I deal with it later.
Carol:
Wow.
Liz:
And if I needed to, I could go back in as a recruiter and climb the ladder or something. I was lucky that I didn't have to do that. I got really great consulting gigs that allowed me to spread my wings a bit, which gave me enough credo to then gum in house at the level I did. But not everyone... Look, I applied for jobs in 2021 and they're like, "You're not qualified." I'm like, "Yes I am." And I would talk to people and like, "Yeah, but you haven't really..." That happened. My boss took a chance on me. I will tell you Carol though he wouldn't have, if I hadn't come highly recommended by one of his board members and two of his staff members, it was my network. It wasn't my resume, it was my network.
Carol:
I love that you said that because I always talk about that. A good network will do twice more but what a good resume will do. So I love that you said that, but I'm wondering we talk a lot about like confidence and self confidence and the fear of the unknown, and you sound as you describe it, like we're confident and self assure the whole way through. Was there any moments of like...
Liz:
Great story [inaudible 00:11:35] I knew that I was flat lining at a point where I quote unquote should be growing, but I didn't feel like I had a choice in order to be the mom I wanted to be. And I would tell people, I know I could have but I didn't, but I don't regret that choice.
Carol:
Yeah.
Liz:
And I just figured I had to make the choice that was right for me and my family, which will always be my number one priority in that moment, so that I wouldn't have regrets because I could have regrets on the career side and live with myself. I couldn't have regrets on the family side and live with myself.
Carol:
Got you.
Kathleen:
And am lucky. Look, I wasn't the breadwinner, I was the secondary breadwinner, so there were certain things that were not on my shoulders. Right? But it was... I knew the career choices weren't the best career only choices but I did focus the last couple years. I did focus a lot on personal brand. Starting this podcast with Kat has been revolutionary for... And thank God she joined me on this because I would not have done this journey by myself.
Carol:
Yeah.
Liz:
But just in widening my influence and breadth and establishing myself as a thought leader. Oh yes. I have a career of podcast [inaudible 00:12:54] It helped for sure but I would say I was not confident. And in fact, there was definitely a point probably when the kids were like 6, 7, 8, 9, where I was like, "I've screwed myself." I'm never going to be able to get back where I want to be or I'm going to have to slog, but then if you had said, "Well, are you going to go back full time and do it now?" The answer was no, I couldn't.
Carol:
Yeah.
Liz:
I couldn't see how I could do it. I am sure I could've if I had to.
Carol:
Yeah. The thing about your story that I know because I've been able to witness it, along the way with you is...
Liz:
She's my career coach.
Kathleen:
Liz knows who she is and what her priorities are.
Carol:
Yes.
Kathleen:
And so, that was very intentional. And when we're intentional things end up working out better for us in the long run.
Carol:
Absolutely. I love that you said that. Yeah. And I think that is so true. I think being in touch, I was going to comment on that, what you did was believe in your values, what was important to you and didn't let anyone else talk you out of that and so you followed what was right for you. And I think so many people aren't even in touch with what that is, let alone follow it and I think that's so amazing. What were you going to say, Kathleen?
Kathleen:
Oh, I just think it's important to really know what you want.
Carol:
Yeah.
Kathleen:
Now Liz and I are speaking at the Women Transforming Technology Conference in April, and the theme of the conference is elevate joy. And so we set a proposal in November or December, and we're going to do a talk on elevating joy in your career by knowing what your must have list is and using that to leverage your career choices. So that's part of the process that we both use when we work with one on one people who come to us for career coaching, it's like, we can help you their resume. But before you do the resume, the real work is upfront. The resume is easy when you know what you know, what you want.
Carol:
Yeah. I love that. I say a resume is just a record of what you've done, but you have to figure out you want to go.
Kathleen:
The resume's a marketing tool, right?
Carol:
Yeah. I totally love that. So, what led you guys to create the Real Job Talk Podcast?
Kathleen:
Real Job Talk was Liz's idea. She came to me during a really busy time with my work and said, "I got this idea Kat."
Liz:
And I was bored.
Kathleen:
And I was like, "This is a really good idea, let's talk again in six months." And I think it was about a year later that I said, "Okay, now's the time." Because one thing I've learned in business is, great ideas are important, but right timing is even more important.
Carol:
Yeah.
Kathleen:
Sometimes, if you got to know what do you have on your plate and is it the right time? Is it the right time to take a move? To make a career move? Is it the right time to launch a new project? But I think that the timing really worked for us and the biggest bonus is getting to have more time with this lady. She's fabulous. She's one of the smartest people I know and one of the kindest people, but also gives it to you straight.
Carol:
Yeah.
Liz:
I'm going to cry.
Carol:
That's so awesome. I love it. And so, when you talked about people really... Like even your talk, finding your joy and really knowing what you want to do in your career, what would you say is a first step that people can take if they're struggling with that question? With trying to figure out, not only what do I want but how do I hold my priorities and my values as more important and to follow those, when they seem to be conflicting with what I think my career should be or where I think I should go?
Liz:
I think that's where the must have list is so important. Right? So you think about what do I want out of my career and what do I need in my career right now? And then you back out of it, right? So if you think I really love working with customers, then that's on your must have list. Like a job where you never talk to customers, not a good fit. And so, one thing that one of our podcast guests that happens to be a friend of mine from high school, but he's always been fabulous, "I have a lot of years of knowledge." He said, "Look at your calendar and follow your energy. Which meetings light you up and get you sighted and which meetings drag you down and make you feel like you need a cup of coffee. And that will help you start to see which parts of my job do I love. You're going to have things that absolutely suck the life out of you. That is life." Anyone has figured out...
Carol:
I would say it's 50, 50.
Liz:
Yes. If anyone's figured out the kid to life where you don't have some life suckage please let me know. That said, you don't want it to be so [inaudible 00:18:08] that you're feeling so drained all the time. You want... My CEO said it the other day, "I woke up this morning so psyched to come to work."
Carol:
So that's the juice. Right? That's what we all want.
Kathleen:
Yeah.
Liz:
I will tell you, like right now I'm doing so much good stuff and seeing impact and holy moly on making that happen. I'm excited to get to my desk. I'm working like a lunatic and I am excited to get to my desk because I'm super excited about this company we're building.
Carol:
Yeah. That's awesome.
Liz:
But to back it up, it's about knowing what you can do and what you want in your job now and then flushing out what kinds of jobs have that? What does that look like? So when you're clear on your must haves... And must haves include things like compensation, they include things like commute or...
Carol:
And personal life.
Speaker 3:
Ability to work at home and personal life.
Kathleen:
What do I need in my personal life to be happy in my job and in my career? And what do I need in my career to be happy at home? Those are really essential questions to ask.
Carol:
Yeah. I love that. I always call it career life alignment. Right?
Kathleen:
We talked about that when you were on. I've been... And just to know the impact that you've had on me Carol, when I want to say work life balance, I find myself stopping and say work life alignment now. So thank you for that because it is more like balance. I'm a Libra. Okay? And the Libra is the scales, right? So my life is always striving for balance and that can be exhausting.
And so hearing your approach to work life alignment, made me realize who cares about striving for balance, but how about alignment? Because certain times in our life, we're going to be working more. Certain times in our life we might need to have surgery and you're going to focus on healing or you might want to take a sabbatical or you're raising kids, right?
Carol:
Yeah.
Kathleen:
Like different seasons and alignment means different things in those seasons.
Carol:
Absolutely. I love the work that you all do and the focus and the help that you have with people really trying to discover the work that they want to do and mean to do in the world. When you work with your female clients in particular, I find that mid-career professionals, mid-life women who are experienced, smart, go getters, sometimes struggle with asking for help. Sometimes I struggle with admitting that I don't know what I don't know because you get raised in a corporate environment where you have to know everything.
Kathleen:
And it's not safe to be vulnerable and say that's changing, but it's not that way with every corporation. It's not that way with every culture. So you have to guard yourself and game it a little bit but...
Carol:
Absolutely. Or even if it becomes safe, you don't trust it because you've been raised in an environment where that actually wasn't the case for you. So how do you do with women who come to you in whispers and quiet corners asking for your help but aren't ready or feel like they're ready to commit to getting coached or to have a coaching relationship? Because one, they don't want people to know, but two, even to trust themselves to invest in the process to get the help that they need. Do you find women struggle with that? And how do you help them get over that to say, "Come on in. It's okay. The one is fine."
Kathleen:
I think most women are supportive. Right? Most women I know, spend a fair amount of their times giving back to their family, giving back to their community and we've been programmed by society to not put ourselves first. So one of the things I do, an introductory strategy session with people, it's a free call where we'll have a conversation, we'll figure out are we a fit? Right? And I always cover self care in that conversation because I want to sense how does this person... Does this person prioritize self-care? Where are they out on that spectrum?
And here's what I know about self-care, the more we can take care of ourself and make ourselves as resilient as possible, the more impact we're going to have, the more good we're going to be able to do in the world.
Carol:
Yes.
Kathleen:
So I had one of the executives I've been working with for 10 years. She said to me last week, "Kathleen, I don't have... I'm just going to tell you right now, I don't have time to exercise." And what she meant to say and then she went on to talk, she wanted to tell me about why, she has three sons and she is almost like a managing partner for her company. She's one of the owners and she's the one that keeps... She got that observer heart and she sees the big picture really well so I lean on her in my work because I know that she's going to see the picture. But I think saying I don't have time to exercise is... I push back on that because I think that exercise is really important to keep ourselves healthy and also it's such a great stress reliever.
Carol:
Yes.
Kathleen:
And as I was enjoying my workout this afternoon, that didn't happen this morning, but it happened this afternoon. Basically, what I think she meant to say is, "Right now in this season of my life it's more important for me to have time at the dinner table with my sons and my husband." But I think how our perspective is everything.
Carol:
Yeah.
Kathleen:
So working with how we can be constructive with our thoughts and what we tell of this so important.
Oh, absolutely.
Carol:
And I think every woman, everyone deserves support. And women tend to give support more than receive it. So, take little steps in accepting support.
Kathleen:
Yeah.
Carol:
I think it's offered. If you're one of those people that has a hard time receiving support and one of that's free or paid, if it's offered, accept it.
Kathleen:
Yeah. I love that.
Carol:
And then that becomes... You take little steps, you start with accepting, taking on a complimentary conversation. If it's a fit you consider, "Maybe I have worth it to actually get clarity. Maybe I really am worth it to have a happier life and career."
Liz:
I would say to tell someone to try asking for help. I know it's hard. It's like that first habit changing thing. Right? Okay. You're stuck, ask. I was coaching someone who works for me today and I said to her, "Don't sit there stressing, ask and if I don't know, we'll figure it out together.'
Carol:
Yeah.
Liz:
Especially in the remote world, we sit in our own space and we spin. Right? When we're not super confident we can spin.
Carol:
What the time sucks that can be too. Right? It's totally...
Kathleen:
We can just say, "Hey, I need some clarity. I need some hope. Can you help me understand this?"
Carol:
Totally. Yeah. But there's such a stigma over asking for help. And we've internalized it. Like, there's something wrong with us when we do and that's where the misconception really comes in.
Liz:
Yeah.
Carol:
Yeah, go ahead.
Liz:
I was going to say, I would say for a woman, who's having a hard time asking for help, ask a woman you respect first versus the woman who you don't trust or don't... Don't ask the person you don't trust for help because you don't [inaudible 00:25:59] it's what you're way more vulnerable. Right? You're like, "That's super vulnerable," but the woman, "She's awesome, super kind, always tells me if I need anything, I'm going to try it."
Carol:
Yeah.
Liz:
Then you're going to get that like dopamine and it worked.
Carol:
Yeah.
Liz:
So maybe you'll do it again, but be strategic and think about who you're asking.
Carol:
Yeah.
Liz:
So that it goes well.
Kathleen:
Yeah. That [crosstalk 00:26:25] sorry.
Carol:
I was going to say that's one of the reason I love working with women in groups because you start to see that you can have support and rely on each other and you start getting used to... Like you were saying, Liz, was asking for help and asking for support and seeing that played out so that you can implement that really in your life and in your career. Yeah. Kat, what were you going to say?
Kathleen:
Oh, I just think that, if... I was going to say if that conversation went well, this is someone that you already trust, we talk about a board of advisors, right? A personal board of advisors, people in your life that you can turn to when you are contemplating an issue or have a problem or have a challenge. If you don't have a board of advisors, think about people that you trust and start reaching out to them and you can develop that.
Carol:
Yeah.
Kathleen:
And anytime I have an issue, I have go-to people. I cannot tell you how grateful I am for that, knowing that I don't know how to deal with this. This is a new one. I am totally out my comfort zone and I know I can call Liz, and because of our trust, I can tell her exactly how it is, exactly how I feel and she's going to remind me, she's going to give me her perspective. She's also going to remind me who I am, and in that moment when I am full of self-doubt and fear, it's quite a gift.
Carol:
Yeah. I love that.
Liz:
She's that for me.
Carol:
Yeah. Well, and I always tell people too, and you should have a coach, you should get a coach. I think about Serena Williams and Simone Biles and Michael Jordan and is there anybody that you would name tiger will like whoever you would name, they all have coaches because they know they will call them on their [inaudible 00:28:07] they'll push them to another level. They'll take it to... In fact, I was on a coaching call today with someone and she was like, "You're the only one who calls me on my shit." I'm like, "Yeah, because I'm not like I love you to death, but I'm not your buddy. I'm here to help you up love. I'm here to help you meet your goals." And I used to tiptoe around telling people to find a coach or something of that nature but I'm like, "No, if the greats in the world can have one, why can't you have one too?"
And I think the work that you ladies do with your clients to support them, if that's why the woman's with you for 10 years Kat, because she's like, I need someone to help up level someone who is not just going to be a yes mam or a yes woman, but definitely someone is going to support me to go along the way. And so, I know it's easy from this end of this perspective because I've had my own coach. I've got my own coaching, but I know when you're new into the fray, it's like a scary thing to go out there and ask for help or to say that you have somebody who's supporting you to move forward.
Kathleen:
Or there's stigma, like a coach is like a therapist. Right? And actually, I've had several coaches [crosstalk 00:29:19].
Carol:
Or disciplinary, right? Remember back in the day...
Kathleen:
All right. Like a P.E coach.
Carol:
Yes. If you got coaching, it was because you were not performing well and you needed to improve your performance. So I think there's a perception sometimes in the corporate space, that if you have to get a coach, it means something's wrong as opposed to I'm doing amazing, I want to take it to another level. Yeah.
Kathleen:
I think the best thing you can do to up level your career is to get support. Yeah. 100%.
Liz:
And I love what you said about groups, because I think groups there... I don't want to say support groups because that was all kinds of connotations, but I'm doing a book group and we're reading dare to lead by Brene brown and our...
Carol:
Such a good book.
Liz:
I know it's our first book. We had our first meeting last week and it happened to be all women in the room and something magical happened, Carol. And like, these are women from all around the organization and we're going to be starting an ERG and stuff like that. But it was like, we started to talk and support each other in ways that we've never done because we were never all in the room without the boys.
Carol:
Yeah. I love that.
Liz:
I know. It's so cool. So it's a really powerful thing when women are in a room supporting women.
Carol:
Yes.
Liz:
Because we're listening generally and we want to... There's a nurturing thing that happens in a woman who are going to sit in that group, probably women who aren't very nurturing and don't want to help others aren't in the group. So, it's a pretty powerful thing and utilize that to lift you up as Kat said, and be like, "Look, you're awesome."
Carol:
Yeah. I agree. It's magic.
Liz:
Imposter syndrome and stuff like that in a big way.
Carol:
Yeah. I love that you said it's magic because I think it absolutely is. It is something that really happens in the outcome of it when you start to be around other women who can hear you, who do listen, you know you're not alone who identify or understand or you look around and you feel so isolated usually in the corporate space and to actually have someone who like gets it or been there, done that. It can actually give you some not only support, but some ideas on how to deal with their support or to know someone just has your back, I think is just so amazing.
Liz:
Something I did that was pretty cool pre pandemic was a couple years ago obviously, I started this group of work at home moms that had kids in the schools in our area. And I just threw it out to anyone. It wasn't exclusive or anything. You had to be a mom, you had to real work, not MLM work, but job and you had to live around here and be willing to go to lunch once a month.
And it was so great to get this diverse group of women together that had this thing in common because when you're an elementary school mom, the school will have you there 40 hours a week if you'll let them. If you say yes, they'll say, "Okay. Can you also take this?" So there's this huge guilt complex and that's why I started it. Like, are other people just feeling like they say no all the time and like they're a bad mom.
Carol:
Yeah.
Liz:
And it was so cool. Right? And this wasn't career coaches, but we ended up talking about work and the balance or work and how we dealt with days off, ran days off for teacher conferences and stuff and supporting women, supporting women.
Carol:
Yeah.
Liz:
Problem solving together, fetching a little bit but that was okay.
Carol:
Yeah.
Liz:
It was super cool. Again, this group that had this one thread in common ended up being a real support system for each other.
Carol:
Yeah. That's so awesome. So much has changed with the pandemic and the way that we work obviously. What advice would you give most mid-career professionals to position themselves for success, with the changes that are happening and I'm sure you've seen a lot of them with your background and experience with HR, with recruiting, with corporations and what's happening in the corporate spaces today. What would you say for Mid-career Midlife professional women in particular? What should they start doing to really position themselves for success if they're looking maybe to promote or to find a different job or to totally transition out and become a genius like you ladies. What would you say they need to really start thinking about to position them for success?
Liz:
I think the same somewhat the same stuff, right? Like back in the day, whether you were in the office or not, you had to show your accomplishments. You had to ask for struck assignments, you had to let your intentions be known. I'm a salesperson, but I want to get into customer success, how could I get involved with customer success? Right? Like, so you just have to be more overt about it even than ever because you're sitting in your house thinking, I like customer success and nobody knows because the thought bubble does not pop up on the zoo.
Carol:
Well, thank God.
Liz:
Let's all be thankful that there are no bubbles. So I just think you have to really use your one-on-one time with anyone you are with very intentionally so that people are clear on your goals. A decent manager, not even a great manager, a decent manager if you say, "I want this," will help you as much as they're able to get from A to B. They will not though guess that you want this if you don't tell them because mind reading...
Carol:
Love it.
Liz:
Not a core competency. So, I think you have to be more overt, but again, before you go and say, I want this I want that, and have that must have list really clear. Know what that job is that you're going for and make sure it hits the must have list or else you might find yourself in a pickle.
Kathleen:
Yeah. I think you're pretty good. I agree with everything you've said. I do think that one of the things that we've learned from the last two years is that, the people that are able to adapt to change tend to do better. And I'm so grateful back in high school, we had assigned reading this book called Megatrends by John Naisbitt, and this was written in the eighties, but I was talking to a friend about this, this weekend and she said, "That book is still being used in universities, it's still being used in geopolitical arenas." Like it's about figuring out what the trends are before the trends happen and positioning yourself. So it's about being forward thinking. But you can't be forward thinking until you've done some self-assessment until you've been a little bit internal.
So, one of the things that I really push my Midlevel clients to do is a weekly review. Okay? And so, at the end of the week, reviewing what were my top priorities, did I meet them? Where am I spending my time? What were my challenges? What did I do great at? Why I'm not happy about what I did and then do a little post-mortem with that.
Carol:
Yeah.
Kathleen:
Okay. If I could do that again, how would I do it differently? And so you're preparing yourself for the [inaudible 00:37:19] everything we do here on planet earth you're as humans is a learning opportunity. Right? It's at work but... So everything at work is a learning opportunity and challenges are okay. I like to say mistakes are okay as long as we learn from them.
Carol:
Yeah.
Kathleen:
And I don't know about you guys, but I learn from successes but it's the mistakes that hook me...
Carol:
That's where the learning comes.
Kathleen:
And that's when I really learned. So if it's a little bit painful, okay, that's uncomfortable but life can be uncomfortable but the learnings that come through that stuff is where the juice is and that's how we move ourself forward. We don't stay doing the same thing and adapting to change. I think I'm grateful. I'm grateful for that book so many years ago, because I've known that was the skill I needed to develop. And I look at friends, I have friends who can adapt to change and clients who are very easy with change and there are other people that any little change on the horizon is going to stump them. And my heart goes out to them because it's like, "Oh honey."
Carol:
If you think this is something.
Kathleen:
Well, and it's harder to have conversations with those people too because they are so much more guarded and not comfortable being vulnerable and being vulnerable is where the juice is.
Carol:
Yeah. You're right. If nothing else, these two leaders have taught us, there is nothing certain. And so you have to be someone who knows how to roll with it and this time I could see why that is such a key. You guys just drop some gyms and some nuggets here, being adaptable and fluid, asking for what you want, knowing what you want, building that network. Those are just powerhouse suggestions.
Liz:
I have one more Carol, as Kat was talking, I'm like, "Oh, wait." These solutions mindset.
Carol:
Yes.
Liz:
That person who comes in like, "Oh, this is broken." Yeah. No one wants to work with you, no one wants to promote you. You're annoying.
Carol:
Yeah.
Liz:
Someone who comes in like, "I noticed this process is a little janky, I have some ideas. Let's get some other people in the room we'll brainstorm and like, come up with a focus, let's get it started." That person...
Kathleen:
Such a different experience.
Carol:
Yeah.
Liz:
And they have the same problem. Right? One's just whining and has no solutions and the other is like problem identification, problem solution.
Carol:
Yeah.
Liz:
Yes. I made it sound simple but it's a little more complex. But the people who are adaptable are the ones that have really thrived in the last two years, but the people who come up with solutions because we've been problem after problem in the last few years and the people that can adapt and change and figure things out they're the ones thriving and emerging as leaders.
Carol:
Yeah.
Kathleen:
They also know how to say no. No is a complete sentence.
Carol:
Yes.
Kathleen:
And we have to learn to say no so that we have capacity to say yes to the things that really matter, yes to the important projects. And that's a practice too. The first time you do it's not easy, you might need to map out the conversation beforehand but before you know, it becomes easier to say no. If it's not essential, it's not on the most have list. If it's not on your job description and it's an extra thing that's just not going to move the needle for you. It's okay to say no.
Carol:
Yeah. How do you suggest women work with that? Getting that mindset to show that confidence to say no to ask for what they want, to be adaptable, to really shift, particularly if they have been sitting back in this, I don't want to call it victim but just letting life happen to them as opposed to really stepping into, as always say the driver's seat and control of your career.
Kathleen:
Be the CEO of your career.
Carol:
Yes.
Liz:
So the no thing I'm all about it and it was hard. I had to learn the hard way. And I read this book called The Ambition Decision, that it talked about these high achieving women in their mid forties, they were either career, they had opted out of their career or they were in the middle. And in the middle ones would take on everything to try to get that challenge and they were the most overwork because they were trying to do it all and I'm like, whoops, that's me. Because I wanted to be the room mom and I wanted to have... And I had my own business and this and that and I was exhausted and burnt. And so I learned that you only say no, yes to the things that are truly going to bring you joy.
And that feels weird is a volunteer want to help the class. Well I bring... I get joy maybe out of shop running the field trip, but not cutting out stuff at 10 o'clock at night for the teacher. So I'm going to do the volunteering in the class that brings me joy. It does not bring me joy to bring cookies for some teacher potluck that said there are other people that will bring the cookies. Promise and if you call me the night before and say, "I am hose, I need cookies," I am stopping at the grocery store and bringing cookies because by the way, a store bought cookies just as appreciated as homemade cookies for those teacher luncheons lesson learned.
Carol:
I love it.
Liz:
It's about learning to say yes to the things you really want to, and when you start saying no to the things you really don't want to do, get following your energy and your joy, all of a sudden you stop feeling so overwhelmed because the things that make you feel so overwhelmed are the suckers of the energy.
Carol:
Yeah.
Liz:
And they're the things that you said yes to when you wanted to say no. And when you say no and you're like, "I'm not at that thing tonight. I'm in my sweatpants." You feel so darn good because you don't want to be there.
Kathleen:
And also the impact we have right. When we are showing up present and enjoy right?
Liz:
Yeah.
Kathleen:
We have a much more positive impact other than slogging through, doing something and coming in with the energy of a chicken with their head cutoff. Right?
Carol:
Yeah.
Kathleen:
Just trying to do everything. That is one of the themes that I see with the people that I work with. They're just trying to do too much. It's too... The fast paced, whatever, whether it's the fast paced world or the fast paced business that they're in and they're not doing enough to take care of themselves. I made a decision with my business this year that, I believe so strongly in a mind, in some form of mindfulness practice that if someone is not willing to practice for two minutes a day, I'm not going to take them on as a client.
Carol:
Wow.
Kathleen:
And they don't have to be perfect.
Carol:
Yeah.
Kathleen:
I haven't talked to you about this Liz. They don't have to be perfect. Being willing to practice may mean that you miss a day. I have a really solid morning practice. A self proclaim night L is becoming a morning person after having a daily morning practice for two years. Like I wake up and I got work to do. Right? I wake up and I'm excited because what I do in my morning supports me. It fuels me, it reminds me why I'm doing what I do. And part of that is a little bit of meditation. And some days I average about 10 minutes. Some days I have a luxurious half hour meditation and some days I just breathe for two minutes.
Carol:
Yeah.
Kathleen:
Because we've got to clear our head. All we can cannot go through life, we cannot be effective and go through life with all of the stuff in our head.
Carol:
Yeah.
Kathleen:
In just two minutes of clearing that makes a huge difference. Research does show that even if it's little, it makes a difference. So take a few breaths, feel your feet and get present. I try to do that every meeting because if I can show up present without all the other stuff going on, just be here now I know I can be more effective.
Carol:
Absolutely. Oh, that is so awesome. Yeah. I always say this work, it's an inner and outer game. Right? You got to work on the inside stuff to get to the outside stuff or to make the outside stuff even effective at all. You have to do that. I love that you're having this mindfulness practice and working with people who are committed to just taking two minutes to just...
Kathleen:
Two minutes.
Carol:
Really figure out what's going on up here just to clear it out and to focus because we live in a society. This fast food society that always wants to go, go, go without us...
Kathleen:
Do.
Carol:
Yeah. And do right? Always moving into action and not taking any thoughtful mindfulness action that we really should do. So I love that you're doing that. That's amazing.
Kathleen:
Thank you. It's been really helpful to me personally and that's why I believe in it so much.
Carol:
Yeah. And I think that's the ticket to a lot of the strategies that you gave already. Right? If you can engage us to some mindfulness practice, you can learn how to say no. You can because you start listening to yourself and hearing yourself so that you can take ownership for yourself, which I love.
Kathleen:
But also like mindfulness and having a practice does not equate being a naval-gazer, right?
Carol:
Yeah.
Kathleen:
You can do all of that stuff and it's fabulous and it will support you. But if you are not doing the external steps, taking the steps, it's a combination of both. Right? Maybe a little bit of mindset, maybe a little bit of whatever works to connect you with something bigger than yourself, to connect you with why you are here and why you're doing what you're doing. You need that but if you're only focused on that, good luck because you got to take steps to move yourself forward.
Carol:
Absolutely. Love it. So listen, I have one final question. So, I love to ask people this because it's the name of the podcast. So tell me what does being a Career Rebel mean to you?
Speaker 3:
Okay, I'll go. Now that I'm where I felt like for years, I would say I could be that, but I've decided not to and now I'm doing it. And Carol, scares the crap out of me half the time. I'm not going to lie. Like I sometimes sit in meetings like, "Oh my gosh, I can't believe I'm here." And then I'll hear myself say something. I'm like, "Oh, I can't believe I said that." And I did buck the system, I took the road less travel. I took huge risks. Again, none of them I regret it because I was home with my kids or part-time, I was really hands on and running my household and all that stuff.
I didn't know where it was going to go or how badly it was going to impact me. And that was gutsier than I think I realized at the time. Right? And then when I decided to pivot lean back in and then I was like, "No one is going to believe me." And like, they don't... It was so dang scary the whole time and I just had to keep believing and pushing through and having friends like Kat, who are like, "No, you can," I'm like, "I don't think I can." And she's like, "You can, just go." And now I'm here and I'm the only woman on E staff. Only woman... I think we have one other that's a Senior Manager, but since I joined, we've hired more women than men at the company. I'm being loud and obnoxious about it.
Carol:
Wow.
Liz:
And I'm doing and you're doing it. I feel like a Rebel because like I'm now double doubting and I'll tell you something Carol, I couldn't do it without my husband because he made a shift to shift back a gear so that I could shift forward.
Carol:
Nice.
Kathleen:
And he said, "It's your turn, go." And he gave me my wings, which I clipped for myself. He always been incredibly supportive and so I would say, to have a partner that supports you is awesome...
Carol:
Yeah. Amen.
Kathleen:
Journey. But I got my wings and now I'm going and I don't know where it's going, but I feel like a pretty big rebel because I bucked the system and still ended up in the right place.
Carol:
I love it. You did it afraid and did it anyway. I love it.
Liz:
Yeah. I was scared.
Kathleen:
That's right.
Speaker 3:
And I was scared to death when I took this job and I'm probably scared. Now it used to be every day, all day. Now it's few times a week.
Carol:
Yeah.
Kathleen:
That's pretty good.
Carol:
That's pretty good.
Kathleen:
If we're not scared, at least one time a day, we may be doing the right thing.
Carol:
Exactly.
Liz:
What's the worst that can happen. I had a thriving consulting business that I shut down so what's going to happen. What're you going to do?
Carol:
Right. That's right.
Liz:
I know I'll land on my feet. I've proven that.
Kathleen:
Yeah.
Carol:
I love it.
Liz:
One thing Carol, you said when you were on our podcast, you said how... You talked about how people were like, well, "I've just save home and I've done this or I've..." And you're like, "Just?"
Carol:
It all counts. All of your experience counts.
Liz:
And so when we remember the power that's within us set, when you've had the crying baby or my baby had seen different at one point it was awful but we got through it.
Carol:
Yeah.
Liz:
And when you realize what you've gotten through in life, not just in career, in all of life, all of us have had setbacks. All of us have had learnings. Get your power from getting through the learnings and landing in a better place.
Carol:
Love it. Absolutely.
Kathleen:
Me too.
Carol:
There's proof. That's all proof that if you did it, then you could do it again. I love it.
Kathleen:
Absolutely.
Carol:
What about you Kat?
Kathleen:
I just want to say I love the... Looking at the worst case scenario, you've got that mapped out. Worst case scenario is about you go back to having a thriving consulting practice. Right? No, well, never lost there. I'm going to piggyback off Liz here. And I believe that being a Career Rebel is being willing to speak your truth, even when your voice is shaking and your knees are wobbly. And Career Rebels will connect with their vision and their why on a daily basis and understand the value of that, the value of that two minutes to do that. And that gives them the strength and the courage to do it their way. They really are CEOs of their own life.
Carol:
Wow. Mic drop moment. That was awesome. Oh my God. I love it. So much amazingness, listen, Liz, Kat, thank you so much for being on the podcast. It was a pleasure. You all have just dropped so much amazing wisdom and knowledge of your own experience or experience with your clients. And just as being Rebel and game changing women yourself, this has just been absolutely amazing. So thank you so much for being here.
Kathleen:
Oh, thank you so much for inviting us. What a fun night.
Liz:
Yes. Thanks for having us, Carol.
Carol:
Yes, absolutely. Okay. That's all I have for you today Rebels. If you love this episode, share with others and who will benefit from this, all these amazing nuggets and insights that you got today, definitely need to be heard by other people. Also don't forget to subscribe and leave a comment and review. We will make sure that all the information so you can find out more information about the Real Job Talk Podcast and more about what Liz and Kat are doing. We'll make sure those are in the show notes as well until next time. Have an amazingly rebellious week. See you next time.
Hey, if you're loving what you're learning on the podcast, then you've got to come check out the Career Rebel Academy, it's where you'll get the individual help and support you need applying the concepts of strategies you're learning here and so much more. You'll be joined by a community of other Rebels just like you and I'll be there as your guide every step of the way. If you're genuinely looking to change the course of your life and career, I promise you, this is the place you'll want to be. Just go to www.carolparkerwalsh.com/career-rebel-academy. I can't wait to see you there.
