Carol:
Hey there, rebels. Welcome back to another episode of the podcast. We have an amazing guest with us today, an author, a leader, a speaker. Just put out a recent book, which we're going to talk about a lot more in detail. But let me introduce Deepa to you guys today. She is a former senior executive and a corporate inclusion visionary who challenges and redefines the status quo of leadership success and power by centering the needs and experiences of women of color. As a senior partner at Deloitte, Deepa spent more than 20 years helping clients transform and grow, and she focused on women's leadership and inclusion strategies.
Carol:
Now after leaving Deloitte in 2020, Deepa co-founded nFormation, which is a member-based community for professional men of color, offering brave, safe, new space and placing them in C-suite positions and on boards. She's also a women and public policy program leader in practice at the Harvard Kennedy School. She has been a TED speaker, South by Southwest speaker, and has been featured across multiple publications. And as I said, we're going to talk about her recently released book, The First, the Few, the Only: How Women of Color Can Redefine Power in Corporate America. It just came out in March. It had international acclaim. And I am privileged and excited to have Deepa with us today. Thank you so much for being here.
Deepa:
Thank you for having me. That is a lot of words, but I'm so excited to be here.
Carol:
Oh my goodness. I love your background. I think it resonates at some level with so many women who follow the podcast who are in corporate life, who are struggling against societal ideas of success and trying to figure out their own ideas, if they've ever done that work, and just really filling position in a weird place. But I think your book is so timely, in my opinion, because I feel like... And I've been saying this to a lot of women. I feel like this is the year of the woman, that we've gone through what people have been calling a she-cession, she-recovery.
Deepa:
Very hard to say, but yeah.
Carol:
Exactly. And how we've lost more than a million women since 2020 out of the workforce and how that's impacted leadership. And I feel like while all of that feels like bad news, in another way, for me, it feels like a great opportunity. Did that motivate you for... I know you took a lot of time writing the book. You had to do a lot of research, but I just feel like the book is so timely. Was that part of the motivation around you really getting this book out there?
Deepa:
Yeah. I don't know that I knew all that when I was writing it and when it was coming out. But I would say when people ask me do I feel optimistic? That's a question I get often. And I do because of exactly what you're describing. So I ended up speaking with over 500 women of color and writing the book, and now a few thousand just as we've launched nFormation. And yes, there's a lot of hard stories and there's a lot of people pivoting, a lot of people making hard choices, a lot of challenges with moms just trying to make it all work.
Deepa:
But we're also in a moment where I think anything is possible. And I feel like if there was ever a moment where women overall, but I think women of color in particular are getting more opportunity or maybe stepping into positions we've never been called upon or made space for before, there's work for us to do. But it just feels like, yes, we when we sign off on nFormation, we say, "This is our moment." And it's for those reasons that we use that signature. It does feel like we're in an opening. And so it's really important how we walk through it and what we do next and how we do it together.
Carol:
Yeah, absolutely. And I'm curious because in the book you talked about your own journey and being a consulting partner at Deloitte and the work that you've done there, and then deciding to leave mid-career at the height of your game and how people were like, "What? What are you doing?" So I would love for you to talk about that experience because I believe that so many women struggle when they get to that top rank to decide that, "This isn't where I want to go. I want to do something different." And they feel like they're being crazy or ridiculous and being told they're crazy or ridiculous. How did you navigate that?
Deepa:
Yeah. It's a great question. I was in some ways at the height of my career. I'd made partner. I was probably 10 years, 12 years exactly into the partnership. So I was really in my stride. I was a senior partner. I had all the things. At the same time, I had 20 years in front of me. So from a life perspective, I was mid-career even though title-wise, I was probably a senior person. I made partner early. So I really just had a lot of early success and just was looking and sitting in the seat and really just questioning, there's 20 more years. I'm tired. I love what I do in a lot of ways. But also the last few elections honestly had made me really question my life's work and my purpose.
Deepa:
My background prior to Deloitte had been politics. And so I just think there was this growing question for me around purpose that seemed to coincide with some challenging health issues and some bigger questions that came up for me that maybe gave me permission to really explore like, if I don't do this work, even though I sacrificed so much to get to this seat, what would it look like? And what would happen? I will share that I sat in the seat three years longer than I think I should have. So even though I left, it took me three years. I knew I wanted to go. My health was really declining. I really had these growing questions. But because I was a first... So I was the first Indian female partner we made in a firm of 100,000 people. So there's a lot of eyes on me. If I was known by my first name, I felt like my leaving would signal things, would signal not only maybe my own challenges, but might signal things to other women of color coming up around me.
Deepa:
That's partly why it took me three years to leave. I felt really responsible. And I think it's something that's actually pretty common for a lot of the women that I interview and speak with. And in the end, I just finally decided I had to be selfish. I wasn't really happy and it was time to do something else. And I left, I should say, in the early stage of the pandemic. So I left before the great resignation was a title. I left when there was so much uncertainty on jobs and what was going to happen. We weren't in this race for talent. We were in a everyone may not have a job part of COVID. And I just left anyway. And I wasn't sure what I was going to do. I knew I wanted to write. I knew I wanted to do work around women of color. But I didn't exactly know.
Deepa:
And I ended up leaving six weeks before George Floyd's murder. And so it wasn't even something where I knew that race and these conversations that I'm now so immersed in were even going to get the attention that they're getting now. So it was a very unclear time. But I think for a lot of the women that I meet, once you get to the seat, I think sometimes you question, "Is this it? Is this success? Is this what I'm supposed to be doing?" And I think that's a lot of what you want to talk about today, but I think that's really the bigger question. And I was sitting in the seat. And I was willing to walk away from it without a lot of clarity. The best thing that I ever did, but it was very scary.
Deepa:
And I'll share one of the most interesting, fascinating things was when I finally decided to leave, I posted it again, three years in the making. I'm finally leaving. It's a big, long process because I am a partner. And so the obligations are different. Even the legal structure of getting out is different. I post on LinkedIn I was leaving. And I have to tell you, I had hundreds of people of color reach out to me, mostly Asian, but all kinds of people of color saying, "How are you leaving? What do your parents think of you leaving?" And mind you, I was in my 40s. Why am I worrying about my parents? But I think to your point, there's a lot of expectation around what success looks like and a lot of expectation in our communities of once you get to that seat, you better stay there at all costs. And so it was very alarming to a lot of people that I was walking away from it. And I chose me, to be honest with you, without a lot of clarity. And it's still a journey, but I'm glad I did it.
Carol:
Yeah. I think that is so awesome. I did something similar. I mean, my path was, I wasn't exactly sure, and it took me about five years to seven years before I actually made the move, even though it was in my head. But I love that you talked about... It's a couple of things that you said. One, in just really giving yourself permission to do it even though you didn't have the clarity. And I think particularly when there's so much pressure, that it's crazy. You get hundreds of people who are emailing you saying, "What are you doing? And what do your parents think? And how are you..." Probably particularly when you're a person of color and you're the only one in the family. Maybe you're the one of the few in the family who've achieved a certain level. It's like, once you get there, how dare you leave?
Carol:
And you talked about it was a three-year process, but even so, what was it that allowed you to say, "I'm going to give myself permission and I'm going to do this," even through all of that? Because I think that is such a hard thing for women to move past and move through.
Deepa:
Yeah. For me, part of the confusion and part of the time that I needed was my entire identity was my work. And I'm not saying this is a positive thing or a good thing. But I had sacrificed so much. The job that I had was all-encompassing. I sometimes traveled three cities a week. It's not just a job. It's a lifestyle. There's a lot that comes with it because of the travel aspect of what I did. And so I couldn't imagine leaving. I ended up taking eight months of leave of absence to get well. So I think had I not, to be honest with you, had the health crisis, I might not have been able to take the space to realize I have an identity outside of work, and then give myself permission to leave. It was that sequence of steps that finally let me go.
Deepa:
And then finally, something just really stood out in me that it'll all be okay. No matter what, I will be okay. And we'll figure out how we make money. For us, it was stability. It was financial. So my husband had also been a partner at the firm and had left two years before. So both of us were about to go do unknown things. I wasn't leaving. People were okay without me leaving, but they wanted me to leave to a job. They wanted me to leave to something else. The feedback we all get, especially once you're at a certain level. You to go to something.
Carol:
Right. It needs to be justified in their head.
Deepa:
Yes. Yeah. And they were really bothered I wasn't going to something. And I just decided I needed the space. And I have to say, I think part of what we don't understand as women and women of color is when you're in a system like that, it's all about the system. It's all about the structures, the values you believe, the pace you believe, the things that are important to you, the urgency you have. It's all tied to that corporate system. And once you unplug from it... And again, I had the luxury, I had the privilege of being able to take eight months off on the medical leave. Prior to leaving, leaving as a partner, I just took a leave of absence. It gave me the space to realize I have an identity outside of work. I'm going to be okay. I can figure out other things.
Deepa:
I started to realize, what do I even want to do? What do I like to do? I hadn't thought about that since I was 10 or 11. What do I want to be when I grow up? I let myself dream. And I think I just stepped without all the answers, knowing I wanted to write and tell stories and help women of color in whatever form or fashion that came, and it would get itself figured out. And I feel like the universe also met me because I have to say, when I left, to sell a book six weeks after leaving, the pace of it, which this is all happening... Because I'm a year and a half, maybe two years out now. It's not been years for everything that's shown up. It's really I think when you step into your purpose, the universe will give you more momentum and more magic at your wings.
Deepa:
And so there's a little bit of that too. I dabbled my feet and I got a positive response or things would just show up and I was willing to look for them too. I think that's part of what also showed me that I was on the right path or it's okay. I'll be okay.
Carol:
Yeah. I love that. I always say the universe works with you, not for you. And so when you make a move, the universe is waiting there for you to support you. But I love that you said you allowed yourself to dream. And what I also loved is that you trusted yourself. You trusted your own wisdom, your own voice, your own perspective, your own mission and place to go, which I think are some really key points. Now it's interesting too because giving yourself permission requires you to also feel empowered to be able to do that. And I know you talk in your book about... I mean, one is it's broken up in two, three key sections around power, finding it, feeling it and forging it, which I love. And then also the delusions that people need to get over, both personal delusions, and I think you listed 10 of the corporate delusions that people need to get over in order to really find their power, feel their power, and really forge ahead in their power.
Carol:
So one of the things that... We talked about this and just this idea about when you're in these positions of power, how do you find your power? How do you get through and to feel it, to find it, and to forge it, and that you found in the research that you've done with these ladies in your book?
Deepa:
I think what people don't understand if you're not a woman of color, is that so many of us don't feel powerful as we're rising or as we're navigating. What I was surprised to find... and I, again, interviewed 500 women of color in writing the book; mostly I skewed senior... is that these women would be sitting in the highest seats in the country and would tell me privately, "But I'm sitting in a seat of power," this was their exact quote, "but I don't feel powerful." And the disconnect that I think many of us feel is we have not seen leaders who look like us. We haven't been shown a track where we can be authentic or in full voice. And so as women of color, a lot of us have muted ourselves or conformed in certain ways. And we're performing and doing all of these things, I think, to meet expectations. But some of those things don't necessarily match with who we are and where we come from and what we believe.
Deepa:
And so a lot of us end up sitting in these seats of power as I suggest, but not really being in full voice or not even really being able to bring important parts of ourselves. And when I work with women of color, I'm not telling them to bring all of themselves to work all the time. Just be authentic. I think sometimes that feedback is not helpful because how do you do that at all moments? But it's really figuring out for you, what makes you feel powerful? What are you not willing to compromise on? And how do you learn to bring those parts of you to work? And what I have found, and even for myself, it wasn't hundreds of things. It was a half a dozen things or maybe a dozen things for some women. And you don't compromise on those things.
Deepa:
I think the other part of it is that many of us have been taught power is something outside of ourselves. We've been taught power is the seat or power is behaving a certain way. Power is competitive and oppressive. And that's really what I'm talking about with the delusions. We've been taught success is defined by what our parents sacrificed. So many of the women I interviewed, it was stories regardless of whether they were immigrants or not, just how their parents had sacrificed. We feel really responsible. And yet we haven't figured out for ourselves what makes us happy or what does success look like for us? So I think the disconnect is also for a lot of these women, they get to the seat and they're not necessarily happy or satisfied because it wasn't their success if it was their family's definition of success.
Deepa:
And so I'm really asking us to do the work even while we're rising to really question like, what is it that you really want and how do you define success and how do we start to do it in ways that feel authentic or better to us? Because I don't think the white male definition of success that most of us are now conforming to in these structures, especially in corporate spaces, once we adapt to that, I don't think it makes most of us happy and it actually makes us unhappy.
Carol:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And yeah, I totally agree. The patriarchy, the societal ideas that have been placed upon us. And so with the women that you talk to, I mean, did you find that... And the way you're describing it sounds like they were just on autopilot. They got the script is like you come out, you get the script, and you just follow it, and you move on in line without even any type of self-reflective work to figure out if this is the script you want to follow, or if this is the place you want to go, and then you just wake up one day and you end up at the top of the ladder, realizing in a lot of ways, you've climbed the wrong one, or don't even know how you got up there. And now you're trying to figure out either how to get down or around or to readjust it.
Carol:
What were some of the things that the women that you talked to, were they beginning the process of getting that clarity and figuring out what they want? And what were some of the things that you learned that helped them to be able to discover, to get over some of the delusions that I think you talked about in the book?
Deepa:
I think it's unfortunately even more confusing than that because I don't think most of us get the script. I think that's part of the conflict. So many of us are what I call the first, few, and onlys in our family. So literally no one else in the family has worked outside the home or in these jobs. And so we get to the job and we are looking around us at who is successful and who is getting promoted. And it's not usually us or we adapt to those ideas without the full script. And so part of what I want to just be clear is I think part of what's missing for a lot of women and women of color is the script. So we're just adapting and really editing ourselves quite a bit.
Deepa:
And then we end up in the seat. And the other message that many of us have taught ourselves is once we get to the seat, I'll do it my way. So I'm going to conform. I'm going to adjust. I'm going to edit. Once I get to the seat, then I'm going to do it my way. I'm going to let other people do it their way. The challenge is once you get to the seat, there's even more expectation, I found with the women I interviewed, that you're going to behave, that you're going to perform, that you're going to toe the line, that you're not going to even speak up about things like racism because you've never spoken up about them before. You've been one of the proper, good, well-behaved employees. And so why are you going to cause a ruckus once you get to this seat? And so that's the disconnect.
Deepa:
I think most of us have told ourselves, "I'll do it later." And what I'm asking us to do is realize you can't do it later. You have to do it as you rise because one, it's not going to make you happy. But two, it's also not going to create change. And we're in a moment where we need change. I think the other thing that I found is that so many people coming out of COVID just have a different relationship with work, a different relationship with success, even a different relationship with health and all these big questions that we've now unearthed that's making us give ourselves, all of us, permission to ask these questions in a way that we may not have asked ourselves before.
Deepa:
So I think there's also a moment, back to that moment conversation, where I think more of us are asking like, "What am I willing to give up? What am I not willing to give up? How do I have to be able to show up?" And what are my bare minimums to be in these jobs or go back to the office or whatever that is for people? I think there's just a place where that conversation is now finally happening in a really different way.
Carol:
Yeah. How do you suggest that women have these conversations? I know you talked about sometimes shedding these things and leaving behind the things that we've been taught and creating a new belief system could be really challenging, and that it could be challenging depending on where they are in the journey because you talked about these three phases, an early phase, an earn phase, a return phase. So is the process of this discovery, is it different at the different levels that women find themselves in their career?
Deepa:
Yeah. What I found is that most women go through a real reckoning, a real questioning of self and what's important to them and how they want to be, unfortunately when a big life event happens. So it's usually a health scare, a divorce. They didn't get a promotion they were promised at work. Some sort of racist incident happens. Something happens in the system or around them where they have done "all the right things" and the system didn't work in their favor or it bit back in a really unusual way. It's made them then stop and say, "I did all the things I was supposed to do. I did all the good girl things I was taught and yet it didn't work out for me. So who am I now? What am I going to do now? I did the rules and it didn't work. I did the delusions and it didn't work." So I think that the women I found who were really in true voice, it was almost a reckoning where they didn't have a choice. They had followed the rules for so long and the rules didn't work for them.
Deepa:
What I think is happening again in this moment is because of COVID, it's not just the rules. I think all of the rules in our mega society are even being questioned. There's just a different reckoning going on. So I do think as a result of that, more of us are asking those questions. And so I think it can happen in any phase. In all candor, I think some of the less tenured women I meet are more willing to ask some of those questions than the more established women because it's safer. They've just grown up asking those questions. So I think it's really more about if fairness or rightness or wrong are more of a... If you're rewarded for sacrificing, I think some of us tend to continue to sacrifice. But it's almost like when it doesn't work that way that we start to question like, "So then why should I do it?" It's really that that is the moment of, I think, true identity finding and really values questioning or delusions questioning.
Carol:
Yeah. And what are some of the steps that you found were helpful, some of the questions to ask, some of the processes to go through to begin this unraveling or unmasking in order to maybe reclaim who you really are and what you really want?
Deepa:
Yeah. There's a set of questions you can ask yourself. So what I find again with the women I work with, so they're coming to me, they're asking a question because some sort of life event has happened, or they want to make a change in their life. And then I'm asking them to really get quiet with themselves because it's really... We know the answers. It's not something I can teach you. My answers are going to be different than your answers. So in some ways it's about listening to yourself. What do you enjoy doing? What did you enjoy doing as a child? What kind of life do you want to have? What would that day look like in your model day? If you could be doing anything, what would that look like? Is your current culture satisfying you? Is it making you happy? So there's a series of questions you can ask yourself.
Deepa:
But it's really about listening to yourself. And what I find is most of us don't make space to actually listen to ourselves. And most of the women that actually really step into their power have started to journal or work with a therapist or find some sort of spiritual [inaudible 00:21:53]. They're finding some way to get back in communication and alignment with their body and also their minds. But again, when you're in the rat race or when you're in the busy corporate system, there's not always time and space for that. We're just going.
Deepa:
And so it's really again, which is why I think the last couple of years have made more of us be at home and given us time to do some of these things and have some more space to question things. I think that's why it's happening. But there are a series of questions you could ask once you get quiet and just listen. I think we all know. We all know when we're in bad situations or we all know when we're not in the right place. Just [inaudible 00:22:25] to your point, permission and listening. It just doesn't happen all the time.
Carol:
Yeah. Or what we tend to do is ignore it or write it off or think, "I could get through it." I think one of the biggest challenges for women and women of color are used to being miserable, unhappy, and sacrificing.
Deepa:
Tolerant. Exactly.
Carol:
Yes. Tolerating. Like, "We can take it. Pile it on. We can take it all." And so we're so used to suffering and sacrificing and tolerating that I think sometimes we don't even realize we're in that state at some point at some times. Yeah.
Deepa:
Absolutely. I would also add to that, a lot of the women that I met, because they were first, they were also taught to be grateful. Just be grateful you're at the table. And so then you're muting yourself in a different way. So yes, those are the kinds of delusions I want us to get rid of. Don't be grateful because grateful means you're not being in full voice. Don't be thankful. Don't be quiet. Don't work. I mean, the other big message so many women of color get is you have to work two or four times as hard, especially the black women I interviewed. But then you're overworking. You're exhausted.
Deepa:
So I'm not saying more is not expected of us, but I'm saying I want us to be conscious that that's how we've been wired and the messages we've gotten so that we can decide, do I want to do that? Am I willing to sacrifice health and time and family to do that? It's much more of an agency question or a consciousness question once you know that that's what you've been taught. But a lot of the women that I work with don't even know what they've been taught. It's just how they are. And so it's really unpacking that.
Carol:
Yeah. And then they engage in this contract with their employer where they automatically work extra. And then somehow rather in their mind, they think it's because that's what they have to do as opposed it is just something they've walked in with a belief system that has created the dynamic that is making them then miserable.
Deepa:
Yes. And sick and all the things. Yeah.
Carol:
Yeah. Absolutely. You had a chapter that said how to play the game while you change the game. I love that. Tell me about that. Talk more about that.
Deepa:
Yeah. I'll be honest, it's the chapter I did not want to write in the book. And I say that because I feel like my work is so much about not playing the game. There's so many books out there how to play the game. Lean in, do this, do that. And I didn't want to teach that, but I also started meeting more and more women of color who were just saying to me they didn't have that playbook or they didn't know what the rules were. And so could I also please unpack what some of that looked like? And so that's what it really is. And some of the really most senior women I interviewed... And there's a few I name in that chapter, in particular by name like Deb Elam, who was an executive, the first black woman and one of the only women of color in the C-suite at GE. There's another woman I named who was the chief diversity officer at Pfizer.
Deepa:
So really, really senior, groundbreaking women of color and black women in particular. They also shared like, you have to know how to navigate these spaces if you're going to survive, if you're going to thrive. And so what I find is so many women of color are surviving. And so if you are thriving... And that's part of what we need to understand. I don't want us to just survive and get to the seat. I want us to be in full voice and be thriving. And I don't even know that we've gone to that conversation yet because we're just trying to get to the table and just trying to walk through the door. And that's really part of what we have to also unpack at the same time.
Carol:
Yeah. When I talk to clients, I always say that understanding the culture, it's like visiting a foreign country. You don't have to become a citizen of that country to just understand the linguistics or the geography or the customs. You learn it. So you immerse yourself in it to have a great time, but you're still who you are. And so there's this balance, but there's this idea in corporate that we have to lose who we are and actually totally lose our citizenship, if you will, and become a citizen of that new place. And I think it's just how we've been taught, and that's not really the way it is. So playing the game, the way I read that chapter, I was thinking, that's what came to my mind was that it really is about understanding the culture that you're visiting for a while, but it doesn't mean that you change because then you could leave Paris and go to Istanbul. And so you want to be able to take yourself [inaudible 00:26:30] fully as opposed to losing who you are as you're stepping into these different spaces.
Deepa:
I love that. I have a line in the book where I say like, there's this belief, we used to badge through turnstiles when we went to the office, and then poof, we're all kind of the same, and that there is like, you're leaving everything of who you are on one side of the turnstile, then we're all the same. But we're not all the same. We don't just leave ourselves. And we also don't start from the same playing field. And so what you're describing is really what the baseline of the book is, or really the main point of the book is if you just boil it down to one idea, one is that corporate America's not a meritocracy that shows up differently for different groups of people. But the second is I wanted women of color to be aware of what is theirs and what is their responsibility and what they have to do.
Deepa:
And what is the system? There's so few places where I heard us talk about the system and how broken the system is for us and what it expects of us as women and women of color. And I want us to put back on the system what's the system. And so to your point, we can choose to do those things. We can choose to work harder. But I want us to know that the language or the culture in some of those countries that you're describing doesn't work for us. And so to really be aware of what's around us so we can be more choiceful is really what I'm unpacking because we don't talk enough about how the system shows up differently for us and just takes from us. And we have to set boundaries around that.
Carol:
Yeah, absolutely. One of the things I love, I use the vernacular, whatever [inaudible 00:27:51] my clients love being a career rebel. And sometimes people think it means to totally buck against the system and go against it. But for me, it's really about owning your own voice and your own space, which in a lot of ways is an act of rebelliousness against the status quo. When I mentioned career rebel to you or when you hear that word, what comes to mind for you?
Deepa:
Yeah. I smiled because I love it. So I used to always... I mean, I was known for that within my company of 20 years. I was known for being a rebel or doing my own thing. I like that because I think that's what we need more of. Agreed. I don't think rebel is rebelling against necessary the values or the way of working. I think being a rebel is being true to who you are and standing straight in that and not willing to compromise on the things that matter to you. And I think we need more people to be like that in this moment more than ever. So yeah, it's a term... I mean, I hadn't heard your definition of it, but it's a term I always used to describe myself. So I'm probably comfortable with it. So I'm a little biased. I think we need more of that.
Carol:
Yeah. What would be a piece of advice that you would give for people who are listening who are resonating with everything you're saying and have been vacillating and stressing and going through that probably a few years of knowing it's time to do something, but still fearful of it? What would you say is just the one thing they could do to just start the process to help them move forward without the fear of you're going to lose everything or what people are going to say or those type of things, which I know is a lot of work in and of itself, but what would you say the one thing they could do to help move the needle forward?
Deepa:
It may be a couple of things. So one would be, I would say, to look around. I think it's a great time to be looking around. And I talk about this in the book that sometimes, when you don't pick your head up and know your worth, it can be hard to know that you can walk away. So go explore. Call a headhunter. Apply for a couple of jobs. Do some interviews. Even if you choose to stay, then again, you're exercising agency in staying. But I think if it's not necessarily job-specific or you're just feeling stuck in life or you're not really even sure where you want to go next, I think it's a little bit of doing that self-work to really understand where are you in your life and what's important to you and how do you want to make your life look?
Deepa:
And then I would say it's finding community. So I call it the power of me and the power of we. You need to do the me work to understand who you are and what matters to you. But then you need to find others that are like-minded because that power of community can help you leave. That power of community can help you find voice. It can validate how you're feeling. So I think if you're not sure, find a place to go have these conversations so you're not alone and muddling in your head about what you should do.
Carol:
I love that. So powerful, Deepa Purushothaman. Did I get that right?
Deepa:
You got it right.
Carol:
I love it. Thank you so much for being here. I appreciate everything you shared. It is just I think such an important conversation. I think there are things, like you said, we don't talk about. They may be whispered in the halls, but they're not really talked about. And the other thing I love too is just what you shared about. While the solutions as you present them sound simple, they are anything but. But they just require a step forward and for giving yourself permission to actually engage in it. And so I thank you so much for sharing what you share today.
Deepa:
Thank you for having me and thank you for doing this work. Again, we need spaces like this to have these conversations. So important.
Carol:
Yes. Please pick up the book, The First, the Few, the Only: How Women of Color Can Redefine Power in Corporate America. I'm going to have a link in the show notes so that you can find more about Deepa's company, nFormation, as well as how to get the book so that if you want to reach out and gain even more information and wisdom for all the work that she has done and shared, invite you to do that. And listen, rebels, thank you so much for listening. I know this is going to be one that you're going to replay and listen to again and again because there are so many nuggets in here to unpack, some great points and starting places for you to go if you're sitting on the fence and struggling with what to do next next. And thank you again for listening. And in the interim, until next time, have a rebellious week. Thanks for joining.
