Carol:
Hey there rebels. Welcome back to another podcast episode. I'm your host Dr. Carol Parker Walsh.
Carol:
And today, I'm bringing you another amazing guest who is an educator, an author, a coach who just released recently a really great book. Very interesting title that I think is so relevant and related to what we often talk about here on the podcast. So without further ado, let me introduce Dr. Zakiya Akerele. She is an Atlanta-based educator, author, speaker, who found an early passion in academic pursuits, hoping to use them to improve herself, and the world around her.
Carol:
She sought higher education with full force obtaining degrees from Florida A&M, Columbia, and Fordham University in international education, philosophy, and religious studies. Dr. Akerele has served in various capacities at higher education institutions, and at social justice, political and non-governmental organizations, NGOs both in the US and abroad. And she recently released a book called Dump Your Degree, which I love. It's about how to repurpose your education, and take control of your career. And it's a timely, and invaluable resource for anyone seeking guidance on navigating higher education, developing their career and having financial security.
Carol:
So, with that, can we call you Zakiya? I want to welcome you to the podcast. And I am so glad you're here. Thank you so much for joining us.
Zakiya:
Thank you for having me.
Carol:
Absolutely.
Carol:
I would love to just get started and to hear a little bit about your own journey. So, you have your degrees. I always joke and call myself overeducated 'cause I have a lot of degrees. [inaudible 00:01:59]. So I think we can relate. But your journey through academia, and then before like stepping out and launching your own practice, and writing your book, I would love to hear about that journey.
Zakiya:
Yes. So, as you mentioned, I have degrees, four of them. And my last degree, the doctorate, I finished in 2010 in the middle of some economic issues, the recession that was going on. And, in my field, there was not a lot of work available. And so, I found myself underemployed, unemployed with a lot of student loan debt, not knowing what to do. I had aspirations to become a professor, and I just wasn't finding the opportunities. I would adjunct here and there, but nothing that was full time.
Zakiya:
And so, I was like, "Okay, what do I do? Because this is all I've been prepared to go towards." And I had to figure out how do I turn my situation around, open doors, opportunities in other fields that may be connected, or not as connected, but I had the skills to do. And because I was able to do that, doors did open in areas, and industries that I did not even think I could walk into but, because of my skills, my ability to connect with other people who said, "You know what? You might be right for this." Or, "I'll give you an opportunity in this area." It was kind of like a formula I was developing as I went.
Zakiya:
And, eventually, I did end up in higher education and becoming a professor. But my students also were met with unemployment after they graduated. And so, I saw that this was a common thing that was happening. People are thinking, oh, "Once I get a degree, I'm good." And they're met with this appointment sometimes when they graduate. So I said, "You know what? I'm gonna start doing workshops and helping people prepare for that transition." If the opportunities that they thought would be available are not there, what do they do? Do they just sit around and wait for somebody to call them? How do they take control of their own career, and create opportunities for themselves? So, that's pretty much how I ended up here.
Carol:
That is so interesting. It's funny too, because I think what people don't often realize is that so many people don't even work in their degrees. We get these degrees because we're told to get degrees. I know definitely from my generation, it was like, get a degree. It almost didn't matter what you got it in. And so, this idea of thinking you're going to work right in your degree, or do work related to your degree, like you said, even the recession that you were in, and the recession that we're in now with so many people graduating, and not finding jobs. How did you figure out how to think about your degree in a different way in order to utilize it to continue to move forward, even though you weren't able to immediately land in academia the way you planned to?
Zakiya:
Yeah. So I was tired of not hearing back, or getting rejections. And so, I was looking at, okay, this could work. I would find a job opening. And I'm like, "Okay, that could connect, some of the requirements." I'm like, "I know how to do this." So, I would lead with that. And, of course back then, I think cover letters were a little bit more necessary than they are now. People probably don't even read those things anymore. But I would make sure that I would present myself in relation to the skills that I had, and not leading with the degree, or being so closely related to what the industry was. And that opened a few doors.
Zakiya:
But also the connections really mattered. So, a lot of times people feel like, oh, I don't want to ask so and so. Or they feel like I want to get things on my own merit. And I tell people, you're getting it if the opportunity is open and you can do the work, it is your own merit. But you need to tap into resources of your human capital, the people around you in different ways. You need to figure out how to develop relationships, professional relationships in a new way. Don't just apply for jobs, and hope that somebody calls you back.
Zakiya:
So, those were two of the main things. My connections, I was opening doors through them. And then, also with kind of like re-imagining what my skills could offer in different industries. And people took a chance on me. So, that's what happened.
Carol:
I love what you shared. I think that is so powerful. And I just want to really emphasize and reiterate it, that you said that, listen, if you got in the door, it is your skills. It is your abilities that got you there. But also, you didn't do it alone either. That asking for help, doesn't negate exactly what you bring to the table. So, I love how you frame that. That it's not an either/or it's an and. It's a that yes, of course, your skills are gonna get you what you're going... To land you the job. But the process of getting the interview, or making those connections is what may actually propel you into something even more. So, I just really wanted to put a pin in that, because that is so important. I think it was such an important point that you made.
Carol:
And also, how you looked at your positions. The image that came to my mind was like a hopscotch. You didn't say, "Well, oh, this is all I can get. Or this is the only job I'll ever have. Or oh, well, let me give up on my dreams and just stay here." You saw that opportunity as like, okay, a hopscotch. I'm gonna take this position because that's in line with my skills that may open up some doors. Oh, okay, now this is available, let me go there. So I love that kind of analogy. So many times we think, oh, if the perfect thing isn't in front of us, oh, well.
Zakiya:
Yes.
Carol:
As opposed to making opportunities through positions. I so love that. Is that kind of like how you looked at it?
Zakiya:
Definitely. I had to because, if I didn't, I would've been unemployed for much longer. I had to figure it out in a way. And it was trial and error, of course, but definitely you articulated it perfectly, yes.
Carol:
Oh, I love that. I so love that.
Carol:
Okay so now, I know as somebody kind of new, or freshly newly minted graduate student, or a graduate is coming out, I know this is great for them because they can position themselves for success already. But what about the mid-lifer the, mid-careerer, the one who they did come out. Maybe they came out at a time where they were able to land a job somewhere near, or dear to their degree, or what they wanted to do, but are now at a place where they're like, "I don't want to do this anymore. I think I want to do something that's either slightly different, or a complete pivot into something else different."
Carol:
How would you say...? Cause I know the first thing in their mind is like, "Well, let me go get that certification, that degree. Let me go drop another 50 grand on something." It's 'cause of how we're conditioned. So, what do you say to the women who are in that space, or at that place where they're like, "I do want to make the transition, but I don't feel like I have the degree, or the credentials that would get me in the door."
Zakiya:
Well, of course, every industry is different. But the great thing about where we are now, many companies don't even require degrees, or starting to not require degrees, or they're looking more so for skills. I think statistically, I have to remember the number, but it was a large number of execs and hiring managers that were surveyed. They said that most of the degree holders that they were hiring don't have the skills. The great thing about mid-career individuals is that you have the skills. You've been in whatever industry that is for so long that you've developed not only the skills needed in whatever field you're in, but just necessary tangible, transferable skills that could go across many different fields. So, that's the great thing about that. And leading with that.
Zakiya:
That's why I titled my book Dump Your Degree. And it's not to just throw away all of your experience, your education. But stop looking at that as the main factor in how you transition, or pivot, or what have you in your career. It's not the degree, it's what you bring to the table. So, I even say, look, just dump the grad degrees too, in the sense that so many people want to go back to grad school thinking, "Oh, I need this degree in order to transition to another industry." And you don't often. So, I would lead more so with the skills, the connections, getting connected to networks, in whatever the field that you want to go into, and seeing how those relationships you can build with individuals there can open doors.
Zakiya:
I've seen a lot of teachers that are getting into tech. They don't have a tech background, but the tech industry is saying, these teachers have something we need. And the same with many other areas. So, connecting with individuals first that are already where you want to be, and building those relationships to me is key first.
Zakiya:
And then, okay, maybe there's a certification that you might want to take that doesn't cost the 50 grand. I would [inaudible 00:11:40] recommend that. But going to spend more years and massive amounts of student loan debt, if you can't pay for a higher education, I would not recommend that because you already have so much of a [inaudible 00:11:55] background being a mid-career person that could benefit you where you're going now.
Carol:
Yeah.
Carol:
So, one of the things that you said was the first thing you want to do is connect with someone in your field.
Zakiya:
Right.
Carol:
What would you recommend is the best way to go about connecting to somebody in your field, and what type of things should you be prepared to either ask, or what's the best approach should you take to connect to people?
Zakiya:
Right. I really love LinkedIn. I have a love-hate relationship because I think sometimes we can be a little fake. But that's that. But I love it for what it is in relation to your ability to connect with people you would never have maybe connected with. Through the content that they create, through your connections being connected to them. So, I would first look in maybe alumni groups from your school, and to see who in that group is in the field that you're interested in. And building a connection through that. "Hey, I saw you went to such and such as did I, and I'm thinking about transitioning into this industry. And I was wondering if..." Just having a conversation. It doesn't have to be, "Hey I want to get..." I'm sure people don't want to kind of network, but to have that conversation, to build relationship, and even add value to those individuals in whatever way you can.
Zakiya:
Just letting them know I'm thinking about this. And it would be nice if they could help you kind of understand what is necessary in that industry. Even after building those connections seeing is you can have conversations about what you already bring to the table, and how would they recommend those skills, those experiences be used in the new industry that you're looking to approach?
Zakiya:
And also I would, aside from LinkedIn, look at groups like meetup groups. I mean, there are so many ways to connect with people via groups now that are even outside of LinkedIn, and just start networking, start experiencing those groups, and seeing what you can add, and bring to the table, and add value to them as well.
Carol:
Yeah.
Carol:
What if you're unsure about what you want to move into? You want to make a change, you want to make a transition, but you're not quite sure what that looks like. And how do you then, look at your skill sets maybe as a way to guide you toward maybe a career direction, or things of that nature?
Zakiya:
So I would look at what things you were passionate about before you got into their area. A lot of times people, they might be interested in something, but they don't explore it deeply because they think, "Oh, I need to get a job that is stable. I need to get something that's functional." And then, they land in this industry that they're able to work well in, but they don't really enjoy. It's not something they're passionate about. So, maybe they're at that point where they're like, "Okay, you know what? I need something new. I want to feel a different feeling when I'm doing my work." So, I would look back at what you once enjoyed. Or even something that you've newly developed that you now enjoy. And how do you monetize that? There are so many ways to monetize skills and passions now. You can literally do anything and make money.
Zakiya:
So I would do the research as far as, okay, here's what I enjoyed. How do I monetize it? A quick Google search could even tell you that. How are people developing content in this area? Or developing businesses in this area? And seeing who's done it, who's doing it now, and kind of trying to model yourself, or take some points from that. But really just doing some soul searching as to what you enjoy.
Zakiya:
I don't like to recommend people do things just because it's the new thing, or it's out there, and they don't like it, but they see that it's getting some action. But if you're ready to transition, and you worked for so long in a particular area, why not enjoy this next phase, and by looking at what you actually are passionate about?
Carol:
Yeah, I love that.
Carol:
So you mentioned that it wasn't an easy road for you to go on while you were trying to look. Like you said, I had still had to pay bills. I had to be practical. There was a practicality, a piece of it. What were some of the challenges that you faced, or what are some of the challenges that you think that people should be aware of, and prepared for to go through this process? 'Cause it's not just a, oh, I woke up one morning and I'm gonna do this. It really is, you're talking about networking, and assessing your skills, and making some connections, doing a little research. I mean, there's some work involved to it, which I think sometimes people forget that there is some work to it.
Carol:
But it's a labor of love if you're doing something I think related to... Or trying to move in a direction that you really want to go into in your career. But what were some of the challenges that you kind of had to face? And what do you think are some of the challenges that other women should be prepared to face as they go through this process?
Zakiya:
So, I know that people who come before us are well intentioned when they give us advice. Though I didn't get necessarily the best advice for my career journey. Doing things the old fashioned way, approaching networking, approaching applying the old fashioned way, submit a resume and hope for the best type of thing. It's a new game out there now. So, really that was my challenge.
Zakiya:
And before I realized that I have to take another approach, I have to build those connections, as I mentioned before, but even being creative in my application process, as I mentioned, connecting with people from my alumni association and putting yourself out there, so that people know I'm looking to make this transition because a lot of times I think the main challenge people fall into is thinking that, okay, I have X and Y I'm going to apply for this job, and this is gonna come from it, hopefully. But, unfortunately, it's not how it works most of the time.
Zakiya:
So, figuring out how to put yourself out there in a way that people know that you have the skills, or the experience that they may be looking for, you never know what eyes are on the content that you write, or the things you put out there. You never know the conversations that you strike up, whether it be on LinkedIn, and to your connections, or to friends and family, or whomever that will then, come and revisit you in the long run when you're in the process of transitioning.
Zakiya:
So just looking at it from a holistic approach, and not just taking that linear, I'm gonna apply and hope for the best type of thing. I think that is a big challenge people have to realize they have to overcome now because it's a new game.
Carol:
Yeah.
Carol:
Were there any kind of mindset things that had to get through? I mean, I could see this being a little bit of a ego buster, or hit to the confidence level. And then, even people around you who maybe naysayers or, like you said, people giving you advice that's not always the best, or trying to steer you in a direction that really isn't the right way to go potentially for you. So, are there any kind of like mindset issues, I mean, particularly around your confidence, or self-esteem, or things of that nature that you really have to manage in this process?
Zakiya:
Yeah so, when I was experiencing my challenges, I went through a serious battle of depression. I had never been in that place before, but I just didn't know what to do because I had always worked. I mean, I've been working since I was 14 so, at this point, when I had nothing it was a real shocker to me to experience this. And, of course, having all of this education, I started to take it personally.
Zakiya:
But then, it was when I was encountering my friends who also had PhDs, who also went into Ivy leagues and they were jobless, or underemployed, we were all struggling in some way or another. I was like, "Oh, so this is not just me." So, not looking at it like, oh, well they're challenged too let's join...
Carol:
Let's join the pity party, woo hoo.
Zakiya:
I didn't want to do that. I wanted to definitely find a solution. But it was definitely a challenge that I had to overcome.
Zakiya:
So, I am really big on mindset as well. I especially took to a different approach to my meditation, to envisioning what I wanted, seeing where I wanted to be. Recognizing that... 'Cause I have a problem with, or I once had a issue with trying to do everything so perfectly. And not wanting to put stuff out, not wanting to put myself out until everything was perfect. And I had to quickly get over that. And I know that we, as women, that can tend to be an issue. But I had to overcome that and say, "You know what? I'm gonna put this out. I'm gonna put myself out there. I don't care who knows what. This is who I am. This is what I'm experiencing. This is what I have to offer."
Zakiya:
And that's when people said, "Oh yeah, Zakiya needs this. Oh, and she would be great for that," because I was no longer afraid. I mean, of course, fear did keep creep in like, oh my gosh, what if they're thinking X, Y, and Z? But at that point I just really couldn't care anymore. So, I would very much so advise people to focus on their mindset when their mind and their thoughts come to, "I'm not good enough. Oh, what if this shines a light on some flaw that I have?" You have to forget about that you have to just put yourself out there. And know that your experiences along the journey you've been on, they're all relevant. Regardless if they completely match up with this new industry, or completely match up with where you're headed, they're still relevant. You don't regret that, you don't throw the baby out with the bath water. All of it matters. And it helps you to become who you are, and where you're going, yes.
Carol:
Yeah, that is fabulous. I love that. All of your experience matters. It is all relevant. There's another tweetable for you. I love that. It all matters. It's all relevant.
Carol:
And I think we get so stuck in our boxes thinking that, well, if I want to be an engineer that only this matters. Or if I want to do this that only this matters. And I think as women, we tend to look at what we're missing versus all of what we have. And so, I love just going in with the thought, and the concept that it all matters, that everything you have to bring to the table matters.
Carol:
I also, really love some of the points that I think you just listed here, which are great, which is, first of all, you're not alone. So, if you think that you're in the midst of a pivot, or transition and you're freaking out and you're like, "What's going to happen to me," that you're not alone. That you did take some actions to help manage your mind in meditating, and creating a vision, and really just staying focused on that. So, even when fear and doubt creeped up, you were able to lean back into your vision.
Carol:
You talked a lot about getting support, talking to people, being visible, letting them know what it is that you want to do, what type of support, and help that you need definitely to overcome perfectionism. It's not about perfect, but it's about progress. And really just putting yourself out there and positioning yourself for success. So, I mean if you want a recipe, I think Zakiya just like laid out the recipe to really figure out how to manage this process, particularly when the downs come in, or the naysayers kind of come around in that time.
Carol:
So, I noticed that you talked a lot about your journey. You said that it's why you even wrote your book. But what made you now decide, let me put this on paper, let me publish this book, let me get this out here to put that out for other people?
Zakiya:
So, of course, this has been on my heart since I experienced it myself. And throughout the years, I started an awareness campaign, started doing workshops. And, as I began to write, my writing kind of changed. I feel like at the beginning it was more so academic. And I wan it to be relatable where a high schooler could pick it up. Some of my beta readers were actually in the point of them transitioning their career. So, anybody could kind of pick it up, and get something from it. I wanted it to be relatable. And I said, "Okay, I need to put this out now." Why? Because especially during the pandemic, people were shifting, and pivoting, and losing jobs [inaudible 00:24:50].
Zakiya:
And also, you had new grads that were coming out into a new world that was completely different from those who graduated even before them. And people didn't really know what to do, many didn't know what to do. And I said, "Okay, you know what? I've experienced some things, maybe I have something to say." So again, I made it more relatable and I said, "I'm going to put it out now because I don't want people to experience, if they can avoid the pitfalls that I was in." I [inaudible 00:25:19] them to experience that. I did not like having that stint of unemployment, underemployment, looking and not finding. I wanted them to at least be prepared with how they could take their career in a different direction should it not unfold the way they thought it would. So, I thought this time would be the perfect time to just put it out.
Carol:
Yeah.
Carol:
And, like I said, I love the title. I mean Dump Your Degree, but really the subtitle says it all. It's like really how to repurpose your education, and take control of your career, which I think is so powerful. And in this day and age, like you've mentioned before, you've alluded to before, we're in a new landscape of work, we're in a new economy, we're in a new work revolution, I often call it. And so, the old rules don't matter anymore. They just don't work.
Carol:
And if you really want to step into something that you love, and do work that you're passionate about, and that allows you to lend your skills, and genius to the table, you got to pick up something like this. You got to pick up Zakiya's book, and read that because you need to figure out the new rules of engagement if you want to be successful.
Zakiya:
Yes, definitely.
Carol:
Yeah.
Carol:
So, I just have one more question for you, Zakiya. What does it mean to you to be a career rebel?
Zakiya:
So, I like that. I love the whole rebellious aspect. I always say don't conform. I'm big on non-conformity because I don't like to be told what to do. Everybody has their own journey. Of course, there are certain rules that you must follow, certain etiquette, sure. But when it comes to your personal purpose, it's yours, it's your individual purpose.
Zakiya:
So, being a rebel, to me, would be to follow your own destiny, and not one that maybe society tells you that is fit for you, or others tell you is fit for you. But also, to like I put in the title, or the subtitle, to control your career. Meaning not waiting for other people to say, "Hey, you're hired." What do you do when no one is calling you back, or maybe their roles are not a perfect fit for you, and where you're going?
Zakiya:
So, to be a rebel would be to be able to control every aspect of your career, to be able to create your own opportunities when there are none, or when the opportunities don't align with who you are.
Carol:
I love that. Ooh, that is so powerful. To create your own opportunities. To stop waiting for people to tell you what to do with your career, but you really taking the control and ownership of it. That is so powerful.
Carol:
So, Zakiya, what's next for you? First of all, where can people find you? We'll definitely drop all these links in the show notes so that you guys could definitely be able to get that information, but where can people find you and what's next for you?
Zakiya:
Yeah so, I can be found on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok. I need to get on TikTok a little bit more. But all of them are Zakiya Akerele so my first and last name. And then also my website, zakiyaakerele.com.
Zakiya:
And what's next? I have pivoted, I've left higher education, and now I'm a full-time author. I really enjoyed writing this, creating this project. And I have some other books, self-help, personal development books in the making.
Carol:
Oh, fabulous. Well, we'll have to keep an eye out for them.
Carol:
Thank you so much for joining me today. This has been completely insightful, and so necessary, and so timely in the world that we're living in right now in the workforce. So, thank you so much for being on.
Zakiya:
Thank you so much for having me. I enjoyed the conversation.
Carol:
Absolutely.
Carol:
All right rebels, well, that's it for this week. Please come back next week when we're going to be talking with yet another amazing guest. And have them share ways that they can support you in your life and career. And, in the interim, have an amazingly rebellious week. And I'll see you soon.
