Carol:
Hey rebels. Welcome back to another episode of the podcast. I am your host, Dr. Carol Parker Walsh. And we are continuing on this season with some amazing interviews with people who are doing some amazing things in their field. And I'm so excited to bring you another guest today. Vanessa Murphy, someone that I had the privilege to be on her podcast. She is coming all the way from Australia from a completely other part of the world. And I love to be able to talk to people and gain perspective and insights from so many people across this globe that we all live on, because it just gives us an idea that we're not alone, that our experiences may be similar, to see what some of the differences are so that we can learn more and glean more from each other.
Carol:
So Vanessa is the founder of VM Coaching and the Women in Confidence podcast, where she enables women to be their truly brilliant and confident selves at work. In addition to her own confidence coaching practice, Vanessa also offers HR and organization development consulting to organizations. Now, while she was in the Royal Navy, and I can't wait to hear about this experience, Vanessa discovered her love of working with people and helping them to develop and achieve their potential, which led her to her current career of enhancing the lives and careers of others. So with that, Vanessa, I'm so excited to have you on the podcast.
Vanessa:
Hello, and thank you for having me. It's so nice to be able to reciprocate.
Carol:
Yes, yes, it is so good to have you here. So, I would love just to start the conversation. I'm fascinated by anyone who served in the military, but I would love to just hear your own story of your transition of moving from the different areas in your career to doing the work that you're doing now. What was that journey like?
Vanessa:
So the Royal Navy actually, and that was probably part of my career rebel piece, which I'm sure we'll get into, was a really good grounding and a really good management education on how to treat people with respect and how good management actually can be. And many people think the military is all about shouting and orders, and it's absolutely not, it's about coaching and development. And so for me, having grown up in my management growing up, it was a great learning ground for me to see, well, actually what's good people management like? And if you treat people well and you coach them, actually you get really competent and confident individuals. So for me, that whole 15 years of serving in the military was a really good education to then go into my own business and into commercial businesses as well, which they operate very differently.
Vanessa:
So yeah, I spent 15 years in the military, which I look back on now and I think, I don't know how I survived really, because I probably was a rebel who wasn't very good at taking orders and yeah, so I got myself into quite a bit of trouble during my career from not really being good at taking orders, but so when I left the Navy, I already knew I wanted to go into something around people management and to make companies great using people, and using people sounds dreadful, but through people, I knew that companies can be really great. So I'd already spent a lot of my time in the Navy, really prepping myself to go into something to do with people, and that something happened to be human resources or HR. And I knew I wanted to do it. So by the time I got to the day when I had to leave the Navy, I'd pretty much covered the full expanse of all the different parts of human resources.
Vanessa:
And I went into my first commercial job, which was a shock actually, it really was, because different styles, different emphasis, profit was the really important thing, in public organizations making a profit is a joke, we just had to spend and the military spends a lot. And I just progressed nicely in all those jobs. So I was head of HR in a company called Zipcar, which most Americans will actually know about, most Europeans don't, and certainly no Australians don't. And then I was really fortunate after that job, I went to work for Toyota, which you don't have to explain to anybody. Everybody knows Toyota. And I was the general manager of HR and facilities there. And that was an amazing job. Toyota, and I'm not promoting it, but it is such a good employer of people, because it focuses absolutely on people. And so again, it was my second education in many ways about how you can treat people with respect, really develop people, a hundred percent is focused on people and development and talent. And yeah, it was an amazing experience for me.
Vanessa:
And then I was so ambitious, I wanted to become a HR director and it was a goal I'd set myself probably about 10 years prior to that actually happening. And I was very fortunate to take on a HR director role for a small mid-size architecture and design practice. And I just had the most amazing time in that because the company wanted full transformation, but still holding onto the traditional roots of where it was founded and the company had to go through this probably three year transformation. And I was really fortunate to be part of that. And I look back on it so fondly, because every part of what I'd learned up to that point, I was able to put in practice.
Vanessa:
And then we moved to Australia, which was very different, and I had to get a job having been in COVID and lockdown. And now I've gone back to running my own practice again and running my own HR consultancy and coaching, and also the podcast as well. So I'm now back to where I really, really want to be, and that is working for myself and helping people, and using all my skills and knowledge, not just to help one company, but to help many companies.
Carol:
Yeah. That is really powerful. And what a great background in training, I love your view of what the military taught you about developing people and coaching people and respecting people. And I just see that as a through thread, and a lot of probably the work that you do around helping people to build their confidence and really just show up powerfully and to really respect their own brilliance. And I'm curious about the relationship to that, specifically in your confidence work that you're doing.
Carol:
I know we've talked about this, that women so struggle with their confidence, and because we get so many messages about how we're wrong in every way, shape or form, and how we look or how we show up or if we speak up or don't speak up, it almost feels like we can't win for losing in a very patriarchal society. That's not overly surprising, I would say, but how do you help women in terms of garnering, getting their own self respect? So we know employers should be able to do that. And we know when they give people respect that people show up differently. But how do women, in the work of claiming their confidence and becoming more confidence, making sure that they are so respected and could get that respect in the work that they do and in their career.
Vanessa:
So most of the women that I coach, and I only coach women, show up to me because something at work or in the workplace has knocked their confidence. And it isn't always one thing, it's micro knocks that have led them to me. So the first place I always start is by saying, look, just ignore all that and let's just focus on you. This is about you and your confidence, and let's focus on what's going on with you. Because I always say, once you truly, truly know yourself, all the other staff doesn't even penetrate, because you are so resilient and resourceful and you know yourself so well and you can have this inner confidence.
Vanessa:
So I focus on them and their inner confidence first, and we build on really knowing themselves, self-awareness is really key to confidence and really understanding. Where are those elements that the person themselves is not supporting their confidence? Because a lot of people I find, and I'm as guilty as this is saying all this outside, that's affecting my confidence. But actually when you really strip it back and say, well, what am I doing to myself that is really destroying my confidence? What's my inner voice saying? What are those patterns of behaviors that I just keep repeating and reinforcing that behavior?
Vanessa:
So I absolutely focus on let's get to the bottom of you and really raise your awareness. And then once you've gone that through that first stage of awareness, and that can take time, Carol, that really can, we go through to, okay, well, how do you then want to portray your authentic self to the world? So then we talk about the outer confidence. And only then do I get to the, okay, all that outside of you, how can you manage that better? How can you respond to people in a more confident way? How can you present in meetings more confidently? So it's almost like three stages we have to go through. And the one I spend the longest time in and is probably the hardest for the people to get through is the inner confidence piece and really knowing yourself, because it requires time. It requires really, truly listening to yourself. And I say, it takes work and people say to me, what does that mean?
Vanessa:
Well, it takes time, it takes quiet and peace and it can take a lot of time to journal, meditate, all those, whatever. It doesn't matter. It's whatever works for individual to really understand themselves. So yeah, sorry to you, long answer, but I take them through three stages. Some people smash it, they do it really, really quickly because they're just tuned into themselves and they really know what's affecting their confidence. Some people, it takes a lot longer, it can take six, seven, even ongoing. I'm coaching somebody who I first was introduced to two years ago, and she's still going through this process and that's fine, that is her pace, and that is what she can tolerate and it's working for her. Whereas for some people it will take two, three coaching sessions and off they go. And they're amazing. So it's a really interesting process that I go through.
Carol:
Yeah. I love that you said that because I a hundred percent agree with, that I always talk about in my practice is the inner and outer game. And that inner game is so critical, because no matter how many tactics or strategies or whatever you throw at someone, if they don't have that confidence, if they don't have that self-awareness, if they haven't been able to manage their mind through all of the craziness around them, that none of it works, they still go back to old patterns and old habits.
Carol:
And so I love that you talked about that and the time that it takes, and it being okay that it takes time. Now I have to say though, and I hear you because you said, which I think is so brilliant that, and so true that when the external stuff comes at you, you're still like, but wait a minute. They said, and they did. And look at them, not look at me and making them turn that way, turn the direction back on them to focus on really developing that firm foundation, I think is so critical and so powerful. And I'm so glad you said that.
Carol:
I'm curious though, you're coaching women, I'm sure you're coaching women worldwide, but in your practice do you find a difference in how women respond maybe based where they are geographically, or where they are in terms of their organization? Are women in more male dominated organizations more challenged with that, or are women from more European versus US more challenged? I'm really just curious in terms of your experience, have you seen a difference or are we all struggling with that?
Vanessa:
Geographically, I don't think there's a difference. I don't think, I'm just like thinking geographically, I don't think it makes any difference. I haven't coached anybody from say South America or Africa, but Europe, US or North America and Australia, let's say New Zealand, there's no difference. We're all going through the same things. But also I will add, I haven't seen any different either between sizes of organizations. So I've coached people who are in 30 people size companies through to thousands size companies. And again, there are similar challenges and the same themes tend to come up. So it's really interesting that now you've asked that question. We're all struggling with the same things, regardless of where we are in the world, how many people we have to work with, even what sector we work in, they're all the same things. And that's really interesting now you've asked me that, I haven't really thought about it.
Carol:
Well, in a lot of ways I find that reassuring, because sometimes, again, when we're trying to find external factors to justify or explain away things that we can start rationalizing that well, if I worked in a smaller organization, or a bigger organization, or if I worked over in this country, or in this sector, that things would be different. And I think it's really reassuring to understand that no, it's something that no matter where you are, no matter where you're working, the struggle is the same. And the process, the time it takes to really lean back into your internal awareness, in your internal confidence is important. And it takes the time it takes is the time it takes. And what you have to be willing to do is to create the space in order to do the work that it takes to do it so that... And so actually I found it reassuring that you're not finding any differences. I haven't seen any differences either. And I think that's really just an important thing to understand.
Carol:
When you talk to women about the time that it would take to... They're thinking about working with a coach, they want to make a difference in their career. They want to either advance or pivot or transition, and you start to explain to them about this time process, this internal work, this journaling, how do they usually respond to it? Because I could tell you how they respond to me.
Vanessa:
Most people not horrified, but I think maybe disappointed is probably a better way of describing it.
Carol:
Great word.
Vanessa:
Because they think that, but I'm paying a coach and you are the expert and you are going to fix me really quickly, because that's the expectation that's set on, they set themselves for one thing, but also when they work in businesses, there's an expectation that you can just do stuff and it happens quickly and the results are, the KPIs and the metrics and the profit, it happens quickly. And so they see that with them investing in coaching, that should be the same, the ROI should be instant. And so disappointed is the first, probably the first emotion that I see. And they're like, oh, I wasn't really expecting for it to take months. And then for someone like me, then I say, look, I'm still going through this. Now I started this process two, three years ago, I'm still going through this. So it takes time.
Vanessa:
And then I get some frustration because people think, well, actually the dial isn't moving quickly enough. I get emotions come up around sadness. It's almost like the grief curve, I can't remember the actual name of it, but they have to go through a dip before they can get to the other side and-.
Carol:
Was it anger, denial, frustration?
Vanessa:
Yeah. It's all those. And I see all those and that's fine that I allow those to be, because it's a natural part of coming out to be a truly confident individual. But yeah, yeah, I find most people have a bit of a crest fall and face when I say to them, this is going to take some time and we will be speaking to each other probably for at least six, seven sessions. And they're like, okay. I wasn't expecting that. Which is fine. And they then have a go and have a word with themselves and reflect and realize that probably I'm speaking the truth.
Carol:
Yeah. Yeah. But on the other end of that though, isn't it exciting when they're coming back to you years later saying, oh my God, you changed my life. I'm so glad I did that work and I went through that process. Yeah.
Vanessa:
I love that when people come back and they say, look, if I hadn't had that conversation with you initially, Vanessa, I don't think I'd be setting up my own business, or I don't think I'd have taken a job change, or I probably wouldn't have done that presentation, or TED talk, whatever it is. And those to me, I think, well, that's really, that makes me feel great because I just think, well, actually, I've been able to enable that person to shine.
Carol:
Yeah. Yeah. I definitely, of the women, the coaches, the leaders that I've interviewed, that is a recurring theme, is that, in this new economy, this new landscape of work and where we're headed, where we're going, that this taking the time to really reconnect to yourself, if you're really struggling with imposter syndrome, or lack of confidence, or not sure about what you want to do next and just really owning your own journey and taking control of your career, that it starts with you and it starts with really doing that self exploration to really give you the answers that I always tell my client, the answers are there, they're within you. You just haven't taken the time to really dig in deep there and find them, or develop the trust in yourself that when the answers do come up, that they're valid and you don't have to justify them, or work them through other people, or get approval, or any of those things that you're really okay.
Carol:
So I love that you're talking about this, because I think it's so important on the journey to really developing the confidence and the steps that you take to that. What are some of the ways that you help your clients when they start hearing negative feedback from others?They're working through this journey, they're working through this process and others are either questioning them, or making them feel like, no, you should just go put your resume out there and find something, you don't need to do all this kind of stuff. How do you help them be supported to handle those type of things.
Vanessa:
What I like to do with clients, particularly if they come to me in a negative space and they've had a lot of these little micro arrows fired at them, I like to get them to do what I... It's really simple. I just say, look, write a hundred things that you are really good at and you do confidently, a hundred things. And it sounds so simple to me, I've been through it. So I know it's not. And I say but, and when you get to, and most people run dry at about 30-ish, and I say, well, when you get to that point where you can't think of any yourself, you need to go and talk to all those people who support you and love you and get them to fill in the list. And you get to hundred. And all those things, and it could be, and I'm just thinking of somebody that I've coached a while ago, it could be, I'm really good at saddling up a horse.
Vanessa:
It's the small things that you think, well, I do that confidently. I can just go up to a horse. I can put the bridle on and saddle on, and I don't even have to think about it. That's confidence to me when you don't have to really think about things. So I get them to write-.
Carol:
Love it.
Vanessa:
... a hundred things. And initially they do the obvious, I can drive a car or... And then I say, once you've done your 30, go and speak to people, get their feedback, get their validation. And by the time you get to a 100, they've got 150. They can keep going. And so I say, journal that, keep that in a book somewhere. And when you are being, you feel like an arrow is being fired at you, go back to that and read it on a regular basis.
Vanessa:
And think of all those things that you are confident at doing, all those things, and just keep reinforcing those. It's a bit like an affirmation in many ways, or just reaffirming and cementing that part of your brain that says, actually, I'm pretty good. I can do this. There's hundreds of things I know I can do. So I can then handle this person, or I can then handle this presentation, or I can then handle going in and talking to the board, or whatever it is, because I know I've got all these things that are great at, and even I've had it validated by my friends and my family and my colleagues. And that's just a really simple exercise that anybody can do. And I just guide them through that process. So there's one thing.
Carol:
That's a great exercise. And I love that you said... Because I love the idea of affirmations, but I think there's nothing stronger and more powerful when you develop your own affirmations, when you develop the ones... Because sometimes you read these and they sound amazing, but you don't really believe it, or you're not there yet, but when you develop your own affirmation from what you know it's true and what you can lean into, I think that is so, so powerful. I love that. So how do you work with women who... When I think about confidence, let me just back up for a moment. A lot of times our confidence is in the external things.
Carol:
So, either the things that, either other people are validated maybe by our degrees, by the titles that we've had, by the other ways in which the world has said, you're excellent. And if you're thinking about transitioning into something different that maybe you don't have those credentials in, or that experience in, how do you help women really leverage that list, that hundreds list that you talk about, or there are other natural gifts or genius, you talked about the confidence in doing something you have to think about, how do you help them to leverage that to transition into something completely new or different, when they want to do that? Because I think that's one of the biggest hurdles, I think sometimes, that women come up against when they want to maybe transition into something that they're excited about, that I personally think they probably already have skillsets toward, but don't really see it that way because they've not been trained to see their skillsets in that context.
Vanessa:
Yeah. So I'll say to them, okay, you want to go and do X, Y, Z, whatever it is, what skillsets, what confidence do you think you're required to do X, Y, Z? And they'll say I need contents to sell, or I don't know, talk or videos or whatever it is. I say, well, okay, write all that down, I'm a big writer, write all that down, their skillsets, their behaviors. Let's go back to where you are now. And what do you do in life, in work that actually you are already doing, you're already doing those things? And I think selling is a really good one because if you're particularly a small business, you have to sell, everybody sells. We're currently at the moment we're influencing each other. Every conversation I have with my kids is influencing, it's selling them to eat the broccoli. There's so much that people do in just everyday life that it's not conscious that they are already doing a lot of the stuff.
Vanessa:
And my job is just to get them to see that, I don't do it for them, I just open their eyes and say, look, all those skillsets that you think you can't do, but need to be able to do that job or whatever it is, you're already doing. You're just changing the environment slightly. But we're not changing the skillsets or the competencies, it's the same. Just don't think about it as anything massively different. And I think that really, really helps, because particularly being a parent, you're utilizing so many skillsets that you can use in business, so many. So as soon if I know somebody's a parent, I'm just like, okay we are totally going to do... We've got this.
Carol:
Oh, absolutely.
Vanessa:
Because all those skillsets you use for toddlers, teenagers, whatever it is-.
Carol:
Even your spouse or partner likewise.
Vanessa:
Yeah. So, most people just need their eyes opening to stuff they're already doing. They just think, oh, well, because I'm going to be managing my own business, or I'm going to be working in a corporate, it's different. It's not, they're still the same skillset and they're same personality traits, they're the same... But yeah, I just open their eyes to it and reframe it. A coach reframes things, comes at things from a different lens and just really opens people's minds to the possibilities.
Carol:
Oh, I love it. So are there a lot of differences, do you find in your approach or your work from your HR consultancy and your coaching, your confidence coaching with women?
Vanessa:
Yeah. A lot of my HR stuff is going into businesses and looking at structures and culture, but underpinning that is leadership and management. And if you have a lot of people in leadership and management who are not competent, or they're not confident in what they're doing, that's where I do some coaching bit subtle, really. It's not a formal coaching setting, but I will coach leadership teams and key individuals. And so it is slightly different, but I'm always, I can't ever turn off that coach hat. So I'm already starting to, it sounds awful, I'm already starting to analyze people when I meet them, or what's going on for them. And how can I support them to be better at leading and managing so that the actual thing you want me to do is restructure can be better supported because I know that the leaders and managers, they're confident at delivering and communicating and seeing through the change. So different, but I utilize my skillsets.
Carol:
Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Why did you decide to do both?
Vanessa:
I get distracted. So I like excitement of doing lots of different projects. Multi passionate is a word that often gets used, I don't really like it, but I've also got this skillset with HR that is, I can do it so easily and I'm good at it. So why wouldn't I carry on doing it? I enjoy it. When I see a company go from struggling to great, I get a huge sense of enjoyment, satisfaction out to doing that and being part of that journey. And I don't want to give up that joy because I genuinely enjoy it. And I like seeing companies and people thrive. The bit about coaching is I also get a lot of enjoyment out of that, it's different, but I enjoy it and I can then focus on one person rather than business. So I just don't think I could separate the two out. I love doing both, but for different reasons probably.
Carol:
Yeah.
Vanessa:
Yeah. I was thinking about, before I came on this, and I was thinking, I've got the podcast, I've got my coaching, I've got my consultancy, but they are so important to me and I couldn't separate them.
Carol:
Yeah, well, no. And I think that's, I think that's really important to share because I think sometimes we get this idea that there's a career, we've been, at least I was raised to believe that you grow up and find the career and that's the thing you do for the rest of your life. But if you're talented and you have interest of various things and you love doing them, I love the fact that you have a podcast and you do organizational consulting and then you do individual coaching, because like you said, the underlying theme and the work that you do, there's a lot of similarities across the board, but it allows you to exercise your skills and your interest in multiple ways. So, I love that, because I think sometimes we get this idea that I have to find the perfect thing.
Carol:
And sometimes when I make the suggestions to clients that, well, what if you did both, or what if you did this and this, they're like, what? You mean I could do both. And yeah, you absolutely can. You can lean into one and do a little bit over here, or vice versa, or just go full into doing both. And I love that through your example, you're really showing the possibility that, of how you design your career is really up to, and what makes the best sense for you. And I think that's so important.
Vanessa:
Yeah. And I have designed it really, because I'm very clear that 70% of my time and my revenue is through HR consulting. And then 20% of my time is through coaching, and then 10% of my time, because I don't make any revenue for my podcast, is on podcasting. And I'm very clear on that for this financial year. It might change next financial year when I start planning ahead for that. But I do actually I have actually designed it so I can do all three, and I'm very clear with my time as well on how I devote time to it. And if there's any blurring of that, I'm really conscious that I am not doing my 70, 20, 10 percentage. And I then pull back on one, or push the other one.
Carol:
Yeah. Okay. So for you multi-passionate listeners, it's possible. It's definitely a way to do it.
Vanessa:
You just need to plan and be really clear on what you want to do. Be really, really clear.
Carol:
For sure. Yeah. I think for sure. And like I said, I think the other thing that was so powerful in what you shared is the underlying thread, because I do some corporate work, I do some individual work, but it doesn't feel separate because the underlying value intention, intent, the work, the purpose, the mission, however you want to define it, is pretty much aligned. And I feel like no matter what environment I'm going to be sharing the same messages and doing the same work, if that makes sense, that I think that's what you're saying, which I think is really important if you're going to do different things to A, manage your time and have clarity on what it is that you really see yourself doing.
Vanessa:
Yeah. And the one thing I'm really also clear about is I don't go into my HR consultancy as a different Vanessa. I don't go into my coaching as a different Vanessa. I'm really clear that through all those, even if I'm doing slightly different work in those, I'm still me, I am the same person who shows up. And I think that's taken some time to say, okay, well, it's okay to be me in all those different environments and I'm not going to make any alterations to how I am just because I'm going into a corporate, or I'm going into a small mid-size enterprise, or I'm coaching a one-to-one. I'm still the same person, because that's really, that's taken some time for me to get to that point where I'm just cool with myself.
Carol:
Yeah. Well that goes back to what you were saying earlier about the self-awareness work. The time it takes to really know who you are, know what's important and to show up authentically, in terms of the work that you do with your clients. And so I could see where that would... That even with that, that's so required in order to be able to show up the way that you can show up for your clients no matter who they are.
Vanessa:
Yeah, absolutely.
Carol:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So what are, do you think are some of the biggest challenges that you think are facing women today? There's so much going on in the world and there's so much to navigate and maneuver, particularly women who are mid-career and at midlife, if you will, and are looking to make those transitions, what would you say are some of the biggest challenges, or even maybe some of the biggest fears that would be challenging for women to actually go after the kind of things that they want to do in their life and career?
Vanessa:
So I think one of the biggest challenges is balance. And this is not specific to women, but I suspect women probably feel the most, but about getting balance and balance between being a career person, being a wife, partner, being a parent in whatever form, and getting that balance between the caregiver and themselves, I think it's hugely challenging for women. And I think it's because society still has expectations about what a woman does. And I feel it and I certainly felt it after I had my first child where people were saying, "Oh, you going back to work then?" Why wouldn't I, why wouldn't I go back to work? It's really part of who I am. So I think there are still societal pressures on women and expectations. I also think one of the challenges are, is having to give people an explanation for the decisions that you make about yourself. And then I thought about this because people... And you never have to explain to anybody the decisions that you make about your life at all, ever. But I still think it's a challenge.
Vanessa:
I think of some examples of myself leaving corporate jobs. "Oh, you're leaving." Oh, why are you doing that?" Or, "Aren't you giving up safety and security to go and work for yourself," which is slightly unknown and you then have to go and find your own clients. I should never have to explain to anybody why I do what I do. And I think that's a real challenge for people. Maybe it's more so for women because we then also feel the need to explain it.
Carol:
Yeah. Yeah.
Vanessa:
So I'm saying to anybody who's listening, never explain to anybody about why you put yourself first, never explain, and you should never have to. You are good enough and your decisions are good enough. You never have to justify anything that you do. But I think it's a big challenge, it's a huge challenge.
Carol:
Yeah.
Vanessa:
Because people are like, oh well, Vanessa's always told us why she's made those decisions and now she's not doing that. Something's not right. Yeah. So I think, yeah, sorry, so balance societal expectations and also having to explain and the feeling you need to do well, that's just bullshit. You don't need to.
Carol:
I love that. I love that. Yes. There's a tweet of all, you never have to justify the decisions that you make. Just make them, if they're good for you, they should be good enough for anybody else. I love that so much. So, that really brings up, and it sounds a lot like the definition I would say, but what does being a career rebel mean to you?
Vanessa:
Yeah. So I think this is somebody who doesn't follow "the norm," put that in inverted commas, the norm, because the norm in my world will be, you get good grades, you go to university, you get the career path, and you spoke about a career for life. And I think it's somebody who says, well, that actually doesn't work for me. It's just not where I am and where I want to be, and it doesn't satisfy or fulfill something in me. So the career rebel is saying, I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to conform and I'm going to do something different. It's also somebody who literally does do something different.
Vanessa:
So I did follow some of the norm. Initially I got good grades, I went to university and then I didn't have a clue what I wanted to do, whereas all my friends were doing the normal stuff of going to work for the big four accounting firms and getting their jobs and going on and do their masters. I genuinely didn't have a clue. And I suppose I was a bit of a rebel in the fact I did lots of temping jobs in London whilst I was trying to figure it all out, because I was too young to really know what I wanted to do. So I guess people will have seen me as a rebel at that point, because they were like, why is Vanessa not going and doing the career trajectory, which everybody else is doing? Why is she temping in some pretty lousy companies in London, but having a blast at the same time, because I was using all my passions.
Vanessa:
And I think my move to the Navy was a part of a rebellion actually because yes, it was a traditional, I suppose, career path, graduate pathway, but it wasn't traditional in the fact it was a safe law firm, or a safe, a big accounting firm out of London, which is what many people did. It was clearly dangerous. It was very, very male dominated. It's got that environment where it's all about masculinity. And so I suppose that was me being a bit of a rebel and saying, I'm not doing what you expect of me, I'm going to do something different, but I'm going to make the most of it and I'm going to utilize it. The other thing about rebel actually is making career decisions that actually make other people feel uncomfortable, but actually makes you feel absolutely fine. So I think the term rebel is actually labeled onto people from, it comes from somebody else rather than me saying I'm a bit of a rebel. Somebody else has given me that label, because they don't think I fit the standard pattern of what is expected.
Carol:
Yeah. I really like that because I love to use the word because for me it's like taking back ownership of it, because you're right, I think people when you walk the unbeaten path, or take the road less traveled, the idea isn't, oh yay, go you. It's like, what's wrong with you? You're doing something wrong, or you're doing it badly, or you're being irresponsible. All those words get attached to you when you decide to go a path that makes the best sense for you, which I think is a lot of the reason because we're packed animals, people want to conform back to that standard. And so yeah, I love to use the word rebel because in a lot of ways it's like preempting that conversation and owning the fact that you are taking a path that other people aren't going to go, and damn it that's fine with me. And to your point earlier, and I don't have to explain it to anybody else.
Carol:
So, I think you're right. I think it definitely is... I love that, a contrast to how other people are trying to define you, or box they're trying to place you in kind of thing. So thank you for that. Thank you for that.
Vanessa:
I think also the rebel now, if I was truly being rebellious, I would probably start making career decisions that consciously make people uncomfortable because I think that's what a rebel does, it pushes the boundaries a little bit and says, you know what? You might have a problem with me doing this, but so I'm going to keep on doing it and I'm going to antagonize and I'm going to push you a little bit to perhaps feel me even more uncomfortable. That would be a true rebellious nature.
Carol:
Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, because honestly I always say people can't see beyond their own limits. And so when you're pushing people beyond what, as far as they can see, you're going beyond the path that they can even imagine for themselves, it does make them uncomfortable. And so I think it definitely pushes you out of a comfort zone. It helps them do the same. Love it, love it, love it. I love that you shared that. So, tell me where, I'm going to put all your information in the show notes, so people can find the Woman in Confidence podcast and locate you. What's next for you? Anything coming up or anything that you want to share and how can people get in touch with you?
Vanessa:
Well, I'm just starting to formalize my coaching packages a little bit more, because initially I was doing one to one and I just think actually that doesn't suit me. So, I'm just starting to work on my packages. I'm also, this might be something, it might be not, but I'm starting to have lunches actually with Women in Confidence people, so my guests. So I've got a lunch coming up in September with all my guests based in Australia, which is going to be amazing. And it's-.
Carol:
Oh, fun.
Vanessa:
... I've said that there's no agenda, it's not networking, call it networking, but I can sort of see something in that. Getting groups of women together, powerful business owners, powerful not in the sense that they necessarily have senior, senior roles, but powerful because they're doing their own thing and getting them together, and just sharing stories and being together. I think there's something so much powerful about community. So, I feel that's a direction that I'm going in, is bringing really amazing women together, call it under the banner of Women in Confidence but, and sharing time together and learning from each other, because we've all got something to share. So, that's a path that I'm going down and I'm really excited about it. So you heard that here first. And then just carrying on doing more HR consultancy.
Vanessa:
I'm doing, I've learned a new tool that I've called the Emotional Culture Deck. So it's about, let's start having conversations about emotions and feelings in work, because everything that happens in a workplace brings about feeling. And if people feel good and relaxed and motivated and wanted and cared for, they're more likely to stay in a business. So many businesses don't, well, they just don't talk about emotions. They talk about strategies and missions and all that sort of stuff, but they forget that actually, that it brings about an emotional response in people. So I've just learned this tool called Emotional Culture Deck. And so I'm going to be rolling that out into workshops to clients who really want to have a different conversation about work and what work means for people. So that's going to be quite exciting as well and bringing that into my skillset for HR.
Vanessa:
And then just doing my podcast and yeah, I've got a strategy and a framework, but I'm pretty flexible as well with that. I guess that multi passionate part of me, I have to keep myself on the rails slightly, but that multi passionate part of me is like, oh, that sounds really interesting. I'm going to try that, give that a go, because I know I can do it because I've been doing a lot of work on myself, because I just think, well, that's interests me. I've got the skillsets, I'm competent at it. I'm going to give it a go. Yeah. So who knows?
Carol:
Well, listen, what I love about that and what I always advocate for is it never hurts to try things, to test things, to explore things because no decision is permanent, and you can always change your mind. And this is a fundamental thing when I work, even with my clients about try it out, test it out, explore it, see what you learn from it and gain the knowledge and information to see if it's something you want to continue to do or not. So I love all the things that you're doing. And thank you for sharing those. But if I had to pull a lesson out of it, I would say, go after the things that you're interested in, try them out and to see what happens. We only get one bite at this apple called life and why waste it thinking about what you can't do, or regretting decisions and opportunities you didn't take as opposed to just trying things out and seeing what magical and amazing things could come from it.
Vanessa:
Totally agree. Yeah, Carol, that is really... Just give things a go, because like you said, no decision is permanent. You can always rewind, or just go in a different direction. And that is possible. Anything is possible. So yeah. I love that you said no decision is permanent, because it's so true.
Carol:
Yeah. I love it. I love it. Well, Vanessa, thank you so much for joining me today. This has been such an amazing conversation.
Vanessa:
I've really enjoyed it. Thank you very much for having me on. It's been great.
Carol:
Yes. Yes, you are welcome. And hey rebels, thank you so much for tuning in. Listen, I know you were going to want to pin this episode and listen to it again and again, there's so much good content, things that you want to take a moment, take some time, journal and really think about, some really good insights and some steps and exercises and tips that you got from this podcast today. So thank you so much for joining me. Stay tuned for another exciting episode, that'll be coming your way with another amazing guests that will be interviewing and bringing to you soon. And in the interim, have an amazingly rebellious week. See you soon.
