Carol:
Hey, hey, hey, Rebels. Welcome back to the podcast. We have another amazing and exciting guest for you today, an expert, particularly when it comes to all things career and all things job search. I am so honored that he is here today to share his insight and wisdom with you. His name is Mac Prichard. Mac is the founder and publisher of Mac's List, a job board and career hub for the Pacific Northwest, with a mission to create more human hiring processes to improve the workforce for all. Mac's List was founded in Portland, Oregon in 2001 and became a certified B Corp in 2017. And today, Mac's List serves job seekers and employers in Oregon and Washington with their top-tier job board as well as courses, books, and other resources that bring people together to find better jobs and happier careers.
Mac is also the author of the book, Land Your Dream Job Anywhere, and hosts a weekly career advice podcast called Find Your Dream Job. And also, I have to say that Mac has a list of the top career podcast to listen to that he publishes every year, and I have been honored by Mac to be on that list for the last two years. But there are also some amazing other podcasts that are listed in that list. We will drop the link so that you can get there and find all of the amazing other podcasts that are out there that can support you all things for your career and job search needs. And with that, Mac, thank you so much for being here.
Mac:
Well, thank you for having me, Carol, it's an honor.
Carol:
Yeah, it's so great. We live so close to each other and we had the pleasure of connecting about a year or so ago and then seeing each other recently at a conference. I loved everything that you put out, it's so informational, and there's so much that people can learn from it. I just am so glad that you're here to share. Today we're going to talk about hacking the hidden job market. But before we get into that, Mac, I would love to know how did you get into podcasting and creating such a wealth of information particularly around job search and careers for so many people?
Mac:
Well, there are two reasons it happened, Carol. One is my career has been in communications before starting the Mac's List job board in 2001 and turning it into a business about eight years ago. I worked as a spokesperson for elected officials, public agencies. I got paid to write for nonprofits. I also ran my own public relations company for 15 years. I recently closed it in December because I wanted to simplify my life, but it was successful and I had a wonderful career in communications. It's taught me the importance of teaching others about ideas and skills, and it's also given me the skills to be able to do that. So that's one reason I started a podcast, because I understood that different people learn in different ways and some of us learn best by listening. We also provide articles and books and courses as you mentioned.
But another reason why I started a podcast and the reason I'm in the job board business at all, Carol, is while I had a rewarding career and some wonderful jobs, I was a speech writer to a governor, I ran city hall communications for a mayoral candidate in Portland, I was a spokesperson for large public agencies, I also had two long periods of unemployment. That experience, once in my 20s and again in my 30s, I cashed the last unemployment check the first time, Carol, and the second time I came within one check of doing it, those experiences taught me the importance of job search skills. And you got to get good at them if you want to have a rewarding career. They also taught me the importance of learning those skills.
Central to our mission at Mac's List, our revenue comes from the sale of job postings, and we're going to talk about job boards, but you also need to get good at looking for work and you need to learn how to do that. The podcast allows us to do it because every week, and I've been doing it for almost eight years now, I talk to a different career expert about the nuts and bolts of job search. I look for people like yourself who are coaches or resume writers or LinkedIn profile specialists, or maybe they're recruiters or HR directors, but they're in the business of working directly with candidates. Those experiences, those jobs give them insights into what works and doesn't work. That's what we talk about on the show. The reason we do it, again, is to help people who were, candidly, in the same situation I was, which is you're trying to figure out your next move and you may not have all the skills and information you need to do it. One of the best ways to learn how to do it is to talk to people who are in the business of helping candidates or in the business of hiring people. So we talk to both groups on the show.
Carol:
Wow, that is so incredible and that's why you offer such a wealth of information or have such a wealth of information because of your approach. And I think also because of your communication skills, your ability to really bring that information so clearly and easily accessible to so many people. So definitely I think your background supported this transition and to be able to help so many people. You talked about the challenge of the job search for so many people. One quick question I have before we really get into what is a hidden job market, which is the topic we're going to talk about is, how have you seen the job search process change over the course of the last couple of years since the pandemic?
Mac:
Well, two ideas come to mind. The first is the basics matter more than ever. I'm talking about the importance of having a clear goal, putting together a list of target employers, having resumes that are targeted and talk about your accomplishments, not your responsibilities. The reason why they matter more than ever, as well as other techniques for navigating the hidden job market that we're going to talk about, is because, thanks to technology, it's never been easier to apply for a job. Sometimes you're competing against dozens of people when there might have only been 10 or 20 applicants five or 10 years ago. But sometimes you're competing against hundreds when there might have only been a dozen applicants. Our challenge when we're applying for work is how do we stand out from our competitors? One of the best ways to do it is to pay attention to the basics.
But another way to do it is to learn the skills that will help you find and get those jobs that never get posted, that never get advertised on sites like mine. There are numbers out there about how many positions there are, estimates between 20 and 60%, whatever the figure, Carol, it's significant. The people who not only pay attention to the basics, they know their goals, what they offer, where they want to go, but also learn the skills that help you navigate that hidden job market are the ones that are going to have an advantage. And so, since the pandemic, as it's gotten easier to apply for work and the competition has gotten more intense, I think that both of those ideas matter a lot more.
Carol:
Okay. And so it sounds like you alluded to the hidden job search market or the jobs that are not posted out there, is that an accurate definition of that for people-
Mac:
It is.
Carol:
... who may not have heard that before?
Mac:
If it's a new expression to you, we're talking about the jobs that never get posted, they're not advertised on job boards or on websites, career pages, or even old-fashioned bulletin boards. These are the jobs that are filled by referrals, by word of mouth. And again, the estimates about how many positions there are like this out there vary between 20 and 60%. But when they aren't posted, and we can talk about the reasons why, referrals become very important and learning about an employer's hiring plans become very important. There are ways that you can get those referrals and there are ways that you can learn about those hiring plans, but they involve networking and, again, having clear goals and a list of target companies.
Carol:
Okay. Is that why you say that the typical job search is broken?
Mac:
I think it's broken because many employers haven't done as good a job as they could in communicating with candidates. They've adopted technology to automate their processes and often for the best of reasons, they want to communicate better, but they want to process the application flow better, they want to find the best candidates. But in relying on software like applicant tracking systems to manage the flow of applications, the reason I say that the system is broken is because employers in many cases don't pay as much attention as they should to communicating with candidates and being clear about what they want and what they're offering.
I think the reason this happened, Carol, is because for many years it's been a employer's market. Often an employer would simply have to put up a posting and they'd get several dozen or even 100 or more applications. They would pick their way through those and find the person they wanted. Since the pandemic, it's been a job seekers market. This is a big change. We haven't had a serious job seekers market really since the 1970s. There was a period for a year or two in the '90s where job seekers appeared to be in the driver's seat, but you really have to go back more than 50 years, or 40 years rather, to see this kind of dynamic in place.
What it means for employers is they got used to just brushing off old job postings and putting them out there, not paying attention to the title. They got used to not sharing salary ranges or being specific about what they wanted to pay for a position. They didn't get as smart as they could have about training their staff on how to write a good job posting, how to run a good hiring process, how to communicate with candidates. There are a lot of reasons why this happened, but in the end, I think it boils down to the fact that employers could get away with it because there were more applicants for the position.
What's changed since the pandemic is now there are much fewer applicants... many applicants rather. And so the employers who always had good practices in place, no, it takes a little more effort, but they're finding people. But the ones who haven't followed the best practices, who have broken systems in place, they're hurting. They come up with all kinds of excuses for why this is so... I remember in the first year of the pandemic, we heard employers say, "Well, once the government checks go away, we're going to be deluged with applications." And it didn't happen. We've also heard that, "Oh, once we get return to work back into place, recruitment's going to get easier." Anyway, whatever the stories, I think in the end it's about good recruitment practices. If you have them in place, you will find good people.
Carol:
I love that you said that because I often tell my clients not to get so stuck on the job description that they see because it could be old, it's their wishlist, it doesn't mean that it's truly what they're looking for, and there's so many other factors that could be behind that job or the reason that they even posted the job that you can't just be so fixated on the job description, that you have to go a little bit further. And so you talked about, in terms of the hidden job market, you mentioned some things like referrals and networking and finding those jobs that aren't out there. Where do you begin in really jumping into the hidden job market?
Mac:
Anybody listening can sit down at their laptop and go to a job board, say a big national one like Indeed or LinkedIn, and they can find hundreds of thousands of positions. I think you'd go to a site like mine and find hundreds or maybe a few thousand. You're really only in the end it arrested in the handful of positions, probably one or two or three kinds of jobs. While you could go on Indeed and find thousands of companies, there's probably only a dozen, two dozen companies or employers, nonprofits, government agencies, whatever your area of focus, that interest you. You're not going to move if you're in Oregon to Maine probably, or Florida or vice versa.
I say all that because I meet so many candidates who make their search harder and longer than it has to be, Carol, who say, "Well, I'm keeping my options open. I could be open to this, I could be open to that," when I ask them what their goal is. The first step is get crystal clear about the job you want. If you've got multiple interests, which is natural, we're all going to be in the workplace for 40 years or more, we're probably all going to have two or three different careers, hit the area of interest that is at the top of your list, define the job you want. While you could look... work rather for one of the several hundred thousand employers, say, in the state of Oregon, there's probably only 15 or 20 companies that interest you. Make that list.
When you are clear about the job you want and you have a target list of employers, I think 25 is a good number, then you can go out and start talking to people inside those organizations. Not to ask them for work, but to have conversations about the challenges that they're facing, the opportunities they provide. You could talk to people who are doing the work, who have the job you want, not to try to get their job, but to ask them how they got there. What did it take? What challenges did they have to address when they were doing a search? What do positions like that typically pay? Who are the leaders in your area of focus, the place where you're looking for work, the city or state, who offer those kinds of jobs? Who's growing? Who might be looking for staff? Who else should you talk to about these questions?
Because when you have dozen or more conversations like that that that are focused on a specific job and a target list of employers, you begin to build a map and you begin to understand who's hiring, who the leaders are, what employers you might want to avoid, what positions pay. And you also begin to uncover who's going to be adding people and who the decision makers are going to be. You can get referrals to those people. So when they're doing hiring, and they may have publicly posted the job, but maybe they haven't, they will think of you for that position.
There's a central principle here that is important to remember, and it applies whether a position is publicly posted or not, it's the power of referrals. Employers want to reduce risk. Nobody likes to see a hiring go bad. It's not good for the employer. It's not good for the candidate. So how do employers manage risk? How do they reduce it? They turn to people they trust for suggestions about candidates. I would challenge your listeners to reflect for a moment about one of the best jobs they've had that they really enjoyed and fit well in, I bet referrals played a part in that. Somebody told them about the position or recommended they talk to a manager. The reason that job was probably especially satisfying was the person who was making the referral knew you and your skills and your interests and what you wanted, and they knew something about the organization and what it offered. In effect, we're a matchmaker. That is one dynamic that happens with referrals.
Now, sometimes I lay all this out and candidates say, "Well, I'm doomed. I don't know anyone." But we all have networks. We've all have gone to schools, high school, college, university, community college. We're all members of community organizations, faith communities, churches or synagogues. We live in neighborhoods. We shop. You never know where a referral or a lead is going to come from. And if you are clear about what you want and where you want to go and you talk to people about your search, that will generate leads. So if you and I meet by chance on the street and you say, "Well, what's going on?" and I say, "Well, I'm doing a job search. If you hear of anything, Carol, let me know." Well, that's probably not going to lead to a lead. But if I say, "Well, Carol, I'm looking for a communications position with a sports apparel company. I'd love to break into Nike. I'm also trying to connect with people at Columbia Sportswear. Do you happen to know anybody who works at those places?" you may say, "No, I don't," but you may say, "Well, have you talked to my cousin who's an accountant who does some work with KEEN Footwear?" You never know. But you get what you ask for, and if you're specific about the job you want and the employers where you want to go, you can generate those referrals through conversations like that.
You can do it in a more strategic way by using the online databases that are available to us who went to community college or university or on LinkedIn to identify people inside the organizations where you want to work that you can meet and have similar conversations with. But it all goes back to referrals. I remember once being at a leadership conference in Orlando, and we all go to conferences eventually in Orlando I think, but the speech was given by a retired naval officer, and I don't remember much about it except the title of the book, It's Your Ship. The other thing he said that stuck with me was you need to learn the system wherever it is you operate and then learn how to make the system work for you. It's the same with hiring. If you understand how hiring works, then you can go beyond just responding to job postings on sites like mine. You should come to my site and other job boards, but you can't rely on responding to job postings alone to get your next job because the competition is so tough, so you've got to learn these other skills. It goes back to your goals, your target employers, and what you offer and doing this kind of networking.
Carol:
Yeah, this was so great. I think what you said, which is so powerful, is clarity. I know with a lot of the women that I work with or connect with, particularly women who have been in their careers for a while and are trying to maybe transition into something, it's a struggle not only to be clear because now there's a fear, particularly if they want to transition, like, "What if it's the wrong transition" or "Am I too old" or "What if I don't have a lot of experience in that?" And so what I find is that even if they may have some clarity about what they want, there's a fear in going out there and talking to people and even telling them or saying, "Look, I'm interested in maybe this particular position in this particular types of organizations." And so it's fascinating to me just this fear of going out there to network, this fear of doing that. Do you find that, and what are some of the ways that you help people or talk to people about getting over this fear of networking and having a conversation so that they can be able to glean all of this great information that may lead to a referral to a position that's not even open that may be ideal for them?
Mac:
I do find many people share that fear and have it, and I think it's normal and natural. One of the best ways to address it is step back and think about what you're trying to accomplish with these conversations. You're not asking somebody for a job, you're asking them for information. I think one way you can approach it is to treat these conversations and a job search like a research project. Once you know what you want, or at least you've identified the job that you want to explore, when you find people who are doing that work, the purpose of your meeting is, again, not to ask for employment, it's to say, "I want to do what you're doing. I'm talking to others like you in order to identify who the leaders are, what's involved in a position like this, what does it pay, what do employers care about when they're hiring someone for a job like this."
And as you have those conversations, and you'll probably have 3, 5, 10 or more, you get comfortable saying what you want. You raise the concerns that you're carrying around it in your head, which is very normal, we've all got them, these objections, like "Oh, I'll never get a job because I'm new to this market" or "I don't know anyone at this large employer where I want to work." Whatever those objections are, write them out and then turn them into questions.
Carol:
That's great, I love it.
Mac:
So if you think, "Okay, I just moved to this state and I don't know anyone here," find somebody who's made that move and ask them, "How did you overcome that barrier? What worked for you? What didn't work?" When you do that, you'll get wonderful insights. And again, you're treating it like a research project. You're not the person who's, who is meets with someone for coffee and says, "Oh, I'm so worried, I don't have this, I don't have that. I don't know what to do." Say, "Well, I don't have a certification, for example. Do you think that's necessary to get the job that I want that I've just told you about or to work at this organization? Have you seen people get positions without those credentials? What did they do? Does it really matter?" So test those ideas and then get advice from people who've done what you want to do. When you do that, you'll not only get confidence, it's great practice when you're actually interviewing for jobs.
Carol:
Those are two great pieces of advice. First of all, treat it like a research project and take your objections and turn them into questions. I love that so much. Hopefully that will remove any of the fear or this idea that every conversation needs to lead to a job offer. That's not the idea here. The idea is to make connections and just get that information out there because you never know who people know that can lead you to opportunities that you may never even thought about. Let me ask you, for senior leaders and executives, I would think this works really, really well, this process of really networking and connecting. I think in my own career, you're right, there were mostly a referral involved or some conversation that I had that led to, "Hey, they're looking," introductions and things of that nature. Do you think for people who are looking for higher level positions that it's even a more successful process to be able to go through this process to be able to find and land opportunities?
Mac:
I think it's vital for people who are looking for senior positions because those positions typically rely on the work of recruiters who are going out and working their own networks. Certainly so many of those jobs don't get posted. I would say about referrals, I think they matter no matter what the level of the job. Again, I would encourage your listeners to reflect back to jobs they had in high school or summer positions, whether it was working at the mall or a retail store, at the swimming pool, probably referrals played a part. So again, it's a constant no matter what the level of the position, but for senior positions, again, the risk is so high. If that hire doesn't work out, it takes a long time to recover, a year or more, so referrals matter even more.
Carol:
Yeah, because that would even lower their hiring risk even more because it does cost so much to replace a senior level position, and so you really want to hedge your bet by getting as many good referrals as you can as opposed to just going to the open job market. I could see that. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Mac:
I'd like to go back to a point you made a moment ago, Carol, when you said that sometimes when people are reaching out to have conversations with others about their job search they worry that if the conversation doesn't lead to a job, that it wasn't worthwhile. I would say this about what are commonly called informational interviews, a good informational interview has three parts. The first part is you share your goal, your story, and what you're looking for. You can do that typically in three to five minutes. The second part is you walk into that meeting, and it's a business meeting. You're in charge, you called it, and you're setting the agenda. So you walk into that meeting with three to five questions, and they could be inspired by the objections that we all carry around in our heads, or there's a reason why you wanted to meet this person. Maybe she works at an employer where you'd like to work, or maybe she made a career change that you would like to make and you want to learn from her experience. Whatever the reason, have those questions ready. That's part number two.
Number three is you want to ask for recommendations of other people you could meet with who work at your target employers, who have done the switch that you want to make, or have the job that you want. If you can get two or three recommendations, you've discussed those three to five questions and you've shared your story, you've done those three things, that's a successful meeting.
I met a lady who moved to Portland. I interviewed her on the podcast. She'd worked on Capitol Hill in Washington D.C. for a US senator. She came to Portland because she was a trailing spouse, and she spent about six months having about 90 information interviews. And she, I think, applied for two or three jobs and she got offers from all of her formal interviews. Now, I tell people about that and they say, "Whoa, 90 interviews in six months, that's a lot of work." It was, but here's the deal, I meet people all the time who applied for 90, 200 jobs in six months and maybe they got five to 10 responses, probably three to five. In the end, they probably got an offer. But what they didn't get was what she got, and she got two things from those conversations.
One, she built this mental map that her goal was to get a public affairs position in Oregon. She knew who was hiring, what they were paying, what organizations that were leaders, which ones rather, and which ones to avoid. When she got an offer, she knew it was a really good offer and she knew how to negotiate, she knew what the market paid, so she got a good salary. The other thing that she did was she created a network of people that she continued to stay in contact with. If you send out 90 applications, at best, you might get a terse email response from 40 or 50 of them, several dozen you'll never hear from. If you meet somebody that interviewed you for a job you didn't get, chances are you're going to feel a little awkward later at the coffee shop. But she actually made connections, professional connections, and certainly these were weak ties, but they continued to serve her well as she put down roots in Oregon.
Carol:
That is a great example because you're right, I know so many people who have applied for hundreds of jobs. That takes work too to put that together when you can actually cut through the chase to get the information you need to land the job you want. You're right, after all those resumes you send out, they probably did get a job, they probably settled for something that wasn't their best opportunity, that they really didn't want, and probably weren't even paid at the level that they could have been had they done this work ahead of time.
Now, I'm sure some listeners who are introverts, who thought, "Oh my God, having those many conversations." Do you give any tips or advice to introverts who are scared about having those type of conversations out there?
Mac:
Again, I think it's helpful to remember that if you're having these one-on-one meetings with people, it's a business meeting, and introversion is a way that we get energy. I happen to be an introvert myself. Somebody who's been in the workplace for a while has had hundreds of these kinds of meetings in a different context. But if you think of it not as going out and asking people for work, but as a research project, it's a business conversation, it's got a clear agenda, you know what success looks like, you know why you're meeting this person and what you'd like to get it, I think it makes it a whole lot easier to make happen, whether you're an introvert or an extrovert.
Often when you say networking, the image that comes to mind is somebody in a loud jacket at a function room at the airport hotel collecting business cards. That's not effective networking. Networking is about building relationships. It's also about being of service to others. People who learn job search skills and practice them throughout their career recognize that networking is not only about asking others for help, but it's about being of service to others too, and being of help to others when they're doing a search.
Carol:
I love that. So let go of the used car salesman pitch, this is not what this is about. And really what I'm hearing you say is shift your thinking and your mindset around the process. Remember that you've already had hundreds of these meetings, you've had hundreds of conversations with people, and that this is just a way to communicate. Like you said, it's a business meeting. And when you go in with your three tips of really setting the stage, I think it helps people feel more confident and comfortable in having those conversations. I love that you shared that. So just a couple of questions in this amazing conversation are, and I think you alluded to some of them, what are some of the things people should avoid when trying to tap it to the hidden job market?
Mac:
I think you should avoid reaching out to people until you have an idea of the job that you want and at least a short list of target companies. You want to avoid reaching out to people and say, "Hey, can we get together for coffee? I'd like to pick your brain." Well, there's a reason why you want to have that conversation, and if you're not clear about it, that's okay. You need to, again, do some basic work. And if you're uncertain about the job you want, maybe there are three positions that interest you, that's okay too. Come up with that short list and identify people who work in that field or have that position. If you have three distinct goals that you want to explore and you have three to five conversations with someone connected with each of those goals, I guarantee you you'll figure out which of the three interest. You just pay attention to the energy you feel.
Sometimes seen from a distance, something looks great, and then when you actually walk into the organization and you talk to people who are doing the work, you realize, "Oh, this is not me." And so what, again, you want to avoid is being uncertain and talking to people, not with the idea that, "Well, I don't know what to do and I'm hoping you can help me figure it out," instead it should be, "I'm interested in the position you're you have or the work you're doing or this organization, and I'd like to learn more about it." And even if it's one of three goals, again, by exploring all three at the same time, you'll figure out what your priority is.
Carol:
Such great tips. What I'm getting from this is get clear and be in control. Don't just show up hoping that someone has the answers for you, but have done a little bit of your research, have some knowledge and understanding of what you're interested in so that you can really guide the conversation and get the valid information you need that will be helpful for you in this process.
Mac:
It's a great summary. It's our responsibility to figure this out. Here's the good news, it's very normal to have three or four different interests that you want to explore. And again, we talked about this earlier, you will change careers several times likely in the course of 40 years, it's normal. But you've got to take charge, you can't wait for someone to tell you what to do. You've got to decide for yourself. And if you're unclear, that's normal too. But again, if you treat it like a research project and you explore a narrow list or a short list of things that interest you, clarity will come.
Carol:
I love that. So amazing. My last question for you, Mac, is when you hear the term Career Rebel, what comes to mind for you?
Mac:
For me, a Career Rebel is someone who takes charge of their career. They don't sit down at their computer and log on to Indeed or Mac's List or another regional... or another job board rather, and wait to see what opportunities might come their way. They go out and they make their own opportunities. In short, Carol, they don't wait to be picked. They figure out what they want, and if they're uncertain about it, that's okay, they just recognize that they've got to get that clarity. By asking others for help and advice and insights, the clarity will come. If they do that work, then when they sit down and they look on LinkedIn or Indeed, they're not going to invest time in jobs that they could do or that might interest them. They don't use the application process as a discovery process to figure out if they want this position or not.
Because they have that clarity and they know what they want, they apply for a lot fewer jobs, probably five or 10 in the course of a search. And when they walk into that interview room, because they have that clarity and they've done the work, they understand what the challenges are, the problems are that keep a manager up at night, they're a much more competitive candidate than someone who takes an interview thinking, "Well, I could do this job. Let's find out."
You don't want to be that person because you're not using your time and energy well, and you really have to do that work upfront to get that clarity. That's a Career Rebel.
Carol:
I love that. I love that. They don't wait to get picked. That's right. That is key, right? They're the ones who are in control of the process. This has been absolutely amazing. I know I say this, but this is one to bookmark and to listen to and to break down. There are so many tips. I took so many notes even myself that could really be useful for so many people, so thank you so much, Mac. Where can people find you? Where could they get the information, get to your podcast and learn more about what it is that you have to offer?
Mac:
Well, three places. Come to our website, macslist.org. We have a regional job board with positions in Oregon and Washington. Some of them are remote, but what distinguishes our site from the other great job boards out there is we have lots and lots of information about how to look for work, free articles, free online courses. Secondly is our podcast, Find Your Dream Job, and you can get it wherever you get your podcasts. It's also on our website. And finally, connect with me on LinkedIn and when you do, mention you heard me on Carol's show.
Carol:
Fabulous. And we will make sure that all of those links are available in the show notes so that you can easily access all of the tremendous information that Mac has to offer. Mac, again, thank you so much for being here. It's really a privilege and honor and as I said, so much great information. Thank you.
Mac:
You're welcome. Thanks for having me, Carol.
Carol:
Absolutely. Well, there you have it, another episode for you, Rebels, and please stay tuned for so many other amazing interviews and conversations that we're going to have coming up over this particular season. Until next time, have an amazingly rebellious week, and I'll see you soon.
