Carol Parker Walsh:
Hey, hey, hey, Rebels. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm so excited today because I have a friend and colleague that is on to talk about something that I think is so powerful and also really growing in popularity, I believe, in how we are showing up in our workplaces. And we're talking about empathy in the workplace, and particularly empathy in relationship to inclusive leadership. And right now since the pandemic, you've heard me say this and talk about this so many times, but the skillsets that we need to bring forward, the focus that we need to have in organizations have got to shift that really speak to how people are thinking about the individuals in the workplace and not just the workplace itself or the typical business as usual, the way we've been doing it.
So let me do a quick intro. My guest today is Shola Kaye. She is the author of two books and an award-winning international speaker on communication, inclusive leadership and empathy at work. She's passionate about helping organizations create an atmosphere of belonging for their people. And when a workplace is fully inclusive and welcoming, amazing things can happen. People are transformed, teams and groups perform better. And really everyone overall just really benefits. And Shola's work has appeared in a variety of industry journals. She's a LinkedIn Learning instructor, and her clients include the United Nations and Deloitte. And I am so happy to have you here today, Shola. Welcome, welcome, welcome.
Shola Kaye:
Thank you, Carol. This is the highlight of my week, so I'm very delighted to be here too.
Carol Parker Walsh:
I love to hear that. That's so awesome. Before we really get into it, I would love to know your journey and how you got into doing this work.
Shola Kaye:
Yeah, thank you for asking, Carol. Well, I think like a lot of people who work in the field of trying to transform workplaces, they themselves had some sort of brush with difficult circumstances. And very early on in my career, I studied the sciences, so we never did anything about communication skills at all. And I'd just got my master's degree. I went to work for a consulting firm. And I just didn't have the skills to speak up really. I think I was the only Black woman in the organization. It was quite a small organization. It was in the States. I'm from the UK, so I felt very much like a sort of fish out of water. I didn't feel very comfortable at all. And that manifested that self in me not speaking up, sitting in the meetings trembling, hoping they didn't call on me to say anything valuable.
And I did all those things that you're not supposed to do, like volunteer to take notes. They looked at me as the kind of secretary versus being one of their peers. And so then I had this quite young manager as well, and he was clearly not very good at having those challenging conversations where you say to somebody, "Well, hey, what do you need? How can we change things?" Because the first time he commented, or the first I heard that he was unhappy, was when I was called to the managing director's office and they put me on probation effectively.
And the manager could have easily had a conversation with me earlier than that and said, "Look, here's what you need." But didn't. So I can only see either he didn't have the skills or there wasn't a supportive environment where they wanted me to swim, they were happy to let me sink. Anyway, that was my sort of first experience of what it could be like to be led by somebody who doesn't have a lot of empathy, and an organization, as well, that wasn't really making a lot of effort to help its people thrive.
And I worked in another organization similar to that after that. And then I just thought, gosh, I'm clearly not equipped for the corporate world. So that took some time out. And then eventually kind of realized that I wanted to go back in and really help people to change things for themselves and to change things in their workplaces so that this sort of thing doesn't happen as much, basically. So in a nutshell, that's kind of how I got to where I am now talking about these topics.
Carol Parker Walsh:
Yeah. That is so fascinating. It's funny because people sometimes will ask me why years ago when I started my career, I had started off as an employment attorney. And people always ask me, "Well, what made you want to be an attorney?" And our stories are relatively similar in that I basically had a shitty boss and was really dissatisfied, just watched how she was a horrible manager and people were unhappy and just really wasn't good at job leading.
And at the time back in the '80s, I didn't hear about things like organizational consulting or empathy at work or things of that nature. So law was the thing I went after at the time, but it's interesting how our experiences really can prompt us to take a direction. And when I started consulting, my idea to consult was to go into organizations and help them not be sued.
So it's so interesting that I think had I had the language that I think you're using today, I would've been better equipped, probably back then, to do so much, probably better type of work than just either suing organizations or just helping people to create policies and not engage your regulatory behavior and practices and things of that nature, but go a level deeper to really make an impact in the organization.
So I'm curious, I would love for you to define what does empathy and inclusive leadership kind of mean and how do they go hand in hand?
Shola Kaye:
Hmm. Well, empathy, the sort of classic definition is the ability to understand the feelings of somebody else. And we can kind of broaden that to three different kinds of empathy. Some people say there's five, but we'll keep it to three for today. But the first one is what we call perspective taking or cognitive empathy where you can actually mentally see the situation that somebody might be in. And that's really valuable, especially for things like design thinking, sort of mapping out customer processes, that sort of thing. But also if you think about psychopaths, they have cognitive empathy. They're very good at putting themselves in the minds of another person, but what they lack is what we call the emotional side. So the ability to feel what somebody else feels. Because if a psychopath felt what somebody else would feel who's going through pain, they most likely wouldn't do what they do, right?
Carol Parker Walsh:
Right. Right.
Shola Kaye:
And that's what we typically is think of or associate with empathy. So the ability to feel what somebody else feels. And then you've got the third kind, which is really going beyond the feelings and the thinking to actually the doing. And that's where we talk about compassion. Or even taking it a bit further, kindness. You can't be kind just by feeling. Kindness, compassion are acts, right? So it's all very well to be empathetic, but it's almost like, well, what do you do with that? Because I could say, "Oh, these poor people," or, "This person's feeling that, they're doing this," but then unless I take some sort of action, how valuable is that feeling? The feeling should really be a catalyst, in my opinion, to promote some sort of action or next step. So those are the three.
You can think about it as thinking, which is cognitive empathy, feeling, which is associated with the heart, and then the doing, which is the compassion. Sometimes it's called mammalian empathy. So when we get to the workplace, as I say, the feelings are powerful, but it's the doing. And let's say that you're a leader, empathy is useful, it can't take you everywhere, because if you've got 10 people in your team and they all feel something different, it's going to paralyze you if you are feeling what all of them are feeling. So a part of it is about you understanding where people are coming from, having those conversations at the right time so that they know that you understand. And then you've got to make your decision based on whatever is important to you as the leader.
But equally, it's if you can recognize and share with people, "Yeah, I get it where you're coming from, this is why I've made this decision." It may go against what you personally feel, "but I have taken your opinion, your feelings into account," that will take you a long way. That will take you a very long way.
So if we go back to what you were talking about with inclusive leadership, if we think about the diversity that we have in the workplaces today, an inclusive leader is a leader that can lead across difference, and they can take a team with all manner of different individuals in it and bring those people together to lead them forward. And it's a little different than transformational leadership. Transformational leadership is really about making sure that you recognize the person, you allow them to shine and so on. But inclusive [inaudible 00:09:48] is around that difference, that aspect of leading across difference. Someone may argue with me, but that's my take.
Carol Parker Walsh:
I love that. And so why do you think this is such an essential quality for leadership?
Shola Kaye:
Well, I mean, going back to diversity, really. We've just got so much, and there's so many studies that say that diversity is good for business, right? But you can't just throw a bunch of people who are all different together in a room and then just expect them to form a really high performing team. You need that leader who will make sure that every voice is heard, make sure that differences can be overcome and moved on from.
You need that leader to bring out the best in people and to recognize, because otherwise you'll get anyone who's marginalized will continue to be marginalized unless you've got that leader who will support them. So we do need these inclusive leaders to make sure that we harness these powers of diversity that we have in our workplaces today.
Carol Parker Walsh:
Yeah, and have the level of empathy. I noticed you had a brilliant statistic on your website that said 50% of people with empathetic leaders reported an inclusive workplace, versus 17% of those with less empathetic leaders. That's a huge jump to show the power of really having someone who, as you said, had those three types of empathy of the thinking, the feeling, the doing, but also a respect for differences and making that connection, which is really powerful.
Shola Kaye:
Yeah, there's so much data out there that just talks about if you have a leader who's empathetic, the difference that it makes. There's this data from Gallup that says, "If a leader is understanding, then the individual in the team is more likely to share information with their colleagues. They're more supportive of their colleagues, they're more creative and innovative." So the impact is huge.
And there is a lot of talk about empathy at the moment, but I think with good reason. I mean, you think, well, come on, that's just basic. But it's not, right? You can't take things for granted in the workplace.
Carol Parker Walsh:
Yeah, well totally, I mean, because there's still this push toward the traditional business culture that values efficiency and productivity over taking the time to understand. And while I think people talk about it, it's fascinating. I was having a conversation with a potential client I'm going to work with, and this idea of this deeper understanding and wanting to connect to people at a different level, even she was talking about how much of a struggle that is and how to make the business case for it.
Because as much as the organization talks about it, she's like, "We love to give definitions of psychological safety and empathy and things of that nature, but there's no work behind it because it's like we talk about it, but we're still focusing on the values of efficiency and productivity." So how can people in a leadership role really kind of reconcile the need for empathy and leadership, particularly like you said, to make the business case for inclusive leadership and really help to bring it to life in an organization?
Shola Kaye:
Yeah, yeah, it is interesting, isn't it? And I was talking to somebody yesterday that they're going to hire me to do a keynote, and they were saying, "Well, we want to talk about empathy, but we have to always bring it back to performance." And of course, performance is important because performance then leads onto the engagement and the productivity and the so on and so forth. But I mean, just at a basic level, if I think back to my own story, so I'm sitting in a room afraid to speak up, the client's paying me, my employer's paying me, what are they getting out of me if I'm sitting there trembling and have got nothing to say? So at that basic level, just in terms of helping people to be at their best, it's common sense that if you are acknowledged, if you are understood, if people treat you with respect, if people understand what you're going through.
So in my case, as somebody who was a young, new to the workplace, feeling uncomfortable because she stood out because of the way she looked, and the fact that the company had very few women as well. So I mean, some of these are common sense, but I think people... Let's say that you're this guy, a young white guy and he probably had never experienced what it was like to be the only one in the room. So it's just taking that step back and thinking, "Well, okay, well, she's not speaking up. Let me think, what's going on with her? What could it be? I can ask her," and that's the most important thing, the curiosity and the desire to learn. "But let me just think, well, maybe there's something going on. Maybe she's not lazy, maybe she's not incompetent." Maybe...
Carol Parker Walsh:
[inaudible 00:15:03] what I'm thinking is right.
Shola Kaye:
Give her the benefit of the doubt. And at least minimum, ask, right?
Carol Parker Walsh:
Yeah.
Shola Kaye:
If you can't even put yourself in someone's shoes, ask them. So those basic levels of respect, communication, lack of fear, regarding what you'll hear, because I think a lot of times when people are, maybe they're managing or leading across difference, there's a fear that what if that person says something that I've never experienced? What if they... And what do I say, what do I do? And then because of that fear, people don't ask.
Carol Parker Walsh:
Yeah.
Shola Kaye:
So you've got to be ready to hear about experiences that you yourself have never had. And there was a great post just before I came on here. There was a great post someone put on LinkedIn and they were talking about the steps of empathy. And they said, "Recognize the emotion that someone is feeling." So he may not have been able to say, "Well, what is it like to be a Black woman in corporate America who's from the UK?" It's probably too far.
But he might feel what's [inaudible 00:16:12] to be the only one? What's it like to feel afraid because people might think he said the wrong thing? Find something in his past that reminds him of that. So it's just, if you can get to those kind of essential feelings, then you can forget the different experience because it's the feeling that will connect us. And I think we just have to be ready to feel, we have to be ready to go there so that we know we can recognize what someone else is experiencing.
Carol Parker Walsh:
Yeah. That is so good. So good. I want to go back to something you said earlier, which I think is really, really powerful. And when you were talking about the three levels of empathy and the one about feeling. And how if you were leaning into everybody's feelings on your team, it can be rather overwhelming, particularly when you're trying to respect differences and trying to connect and things of that nature. So how can you manage burnout?
Some people may worry that too much empathy can lead to burnout or being taken advantage of because they can play the multitude of, quote, unquote, "cards" that people play. So how can people lean in and be curious and feel and connect and engage without burning out, without running the risk of burnout?
Shola Kaye:
Yeah. This is one people ask a lot, and it is, it's tough. There's so much going on. There's so many sort of change and just everything's going on, right? So I think the first thing you've got to do is be able to have boundaries, put boundaries up as needed. And there might be a time when you listen, and then there might be another time where you have to take a step back. And there's actually some interesting data. There's something in Harvard Business Review, and it talked about how if you are an empathetic leader, you have to schedule time between giving feedback and getting back to your work because you will feel debilitated by giving people feedback if you are very empathetic. You can imagine, you're going through those experiences yourself. Whereas somebody who is low empathy, they are actually invigorated by giving harsh feedback. So you know those are those bosses, they're like, "What?" They seem to enjoy taking me down. And that's the thing, it's a thing.
So those individuals need to create psychological safety, whereas the other individuals need to make sure we're going back to burnout, but they have time scheduled in, maybe it's five minutes between a meeting and the next thing that they do, to be able to rest and replenish so that they can stay performing at a higher level. And I mean, we can talk about it at that during the working day, but of course, making sure that when you are away from work, that you are really giving yourself those opportunities to recover, to take a complete break from your working day. And then also to recognize that you cannot solve everybody's problem. Some people might be going through something that you, with the best will in the world, you can never fix that issue, right?
Carol Parker Walsh:
Mm-hmm.
Shola Kaye:
I remember one of my clients, they asked the senior leadership team to watch, it was a video of... You know Bryan Stevenson, the lawyer?
Carol Parker Walsh:
Mm-hmm.
Shola Kaye:
Yes. They asked everyone to watch a video, and it was him telling a story. It was quite a disturbing story. And I remember after watching the video myself, for three nights, I didn't sleep. I was like, "Oh, what was this thing that happened to this person, it's so awful? How can this happen? How can this happen?"
Carol Parker Walsh:
Wow.
Shola Kaye:
After the third night, I'm like, "Okay, what was achieved?" This has already happened to this person a long time, right? Okay. I was empathetic, but I've lost three nights of sleep, so I'm less effective as well, right?
Carol Parker Walsh:
Mm-hmm.
Shola Kaye:
So you got to realize what is the benefit of feeling a certain way over an extended period of time? No one is going to win unless there's some action to be taken as well. So I think if you can see that, recognize that, and then realize that, okay, yeah, it does help to have some boundaries here because no one's benefiting from me replaying a situation again and again, whatever it is. So that can help as well.
And then even things like the... Is it the Kubler-Ross Curve, the change curve where you go through grief, and then... I've worked with clients where they've showed that basically they were letting a lot of people go. So all the managers were obviously really sort of grief-stricken, panicked. They were going to have all these conversations saying, "Well, sorry, you're losing your job." So we did a session on empathetic leadership and difficult conversations before that happened.
And one of the things we talked about was that change curve. And saying that sometimes there are scenarios where there's nothing that we can really do apart from listen, apart from recognize what somebody's going through. And the recognition of that doesn't necessarily mean we have to take on that ourselves, but we are there to acknowledge and listen and recognize.
So I think it's that we've got to have those boundaries and recognize it's not always useful for us to go to experience those emotions as well, apart from just a trigger or as catalyst. So those are a couple of things to keep in mind, I think, to try and reduce burnout.
Carol Parker Walsh:
Yeah. And so this idea of, because I know your kind of tagline around empathy and equity in the workplace and going together. And I've done a lot of diversity consulting and leadership development consulting in organizations. In fact, I'm working with one organization now around these topics of diversity and anti-racism and things of that nature.
But I found over time what we're really talking about are things like having difficult conversations, psychological safety and things of that nature. So in terms of reconciling the intersectionality of empathy and inclusive leadership, how do you use empathy to have these conversations around gender, race, and other social identities? How does it come into play in terms of advancing differences within leadership, but also having these conversations when you think about equity in the workplace?
Shola Kaye:
Hmm, yeah. The way I tend to position it is as the first step, because you always have some people who are resistant about diversity and inclusion, or I'm going to get less because these people are going to get more attention. Or why should we shake things up?
So quite often people bring me in or I position the empathy work as, this is the foundation, this is the first step to almost soften people up so that they are ready to hear a different story. They're ready to acknowledge that other people's... I love Michelle Obama's definition of e
mpathy is something like, "Acknowledging that other people's experiences have value too."
And I think if you can understand the importance of empathy, you can then say, "Oh, okay, well yeah, these people are different than I am, but their experiences are just as valid." And then I think when you come at it that way, and you can combine that with curiosity and courage, and the courage will come from difficult conversations trainings, and the curiosity will come from the idea of trying to create community, trying to bring people together, trying to understand where people are coming from. I think when you can bring those together, that's where you start to create an environment where these DEI initiatives are going to be more successful because you won't have those people that are just stubbornly resistant or trying to derail the process or whatever it might be.
And I think also, even if it's at the employee level, I think if you've got those managers who are a little bit... Because quite often you say, "Well, it's the middle managers that kind of..." At the top, the senior leaderships might say, "Yeah, we want this." At the bottom, you've got people saying, "Yeah, we need it. And then sometimes middle management may not be playing the same game.
Carol Parker Walsh:
Yeah.
Shola Kaye:
But even if those managers can see that there's this kind of support for it among the majority of the workforce, then I think even then that that can be enough to make them realize, "Oh, okay, I need to just shape up a little bit here. I can't just keep to my old ways." And not to imply that all middle managers are resistant at all, but some are.
Carol Parker Walsh:
Right, right.
Shola Kaye:
Or they don't have the skills, right?
Carol Parker Walsh:
Yeah.
Shola Kaye:
So I think that's where empathy can really come into it. And then I think even regarding fighting bias or reducing bias, just questions that people can ask themselves like, "If I had a different person's identity, would I be making the same decision?" Or, "Who is this decision affecting the most?" And that requires you to put yourself in the shoes of another person, [inaudible 00:26:01] understand the impact. So even little questions like that can make people think twice regarding the decisions that they're about to make.
Carol Parker Walsh:
Mm-hmm. That's really great points. Let me ask you, what are some of the signs of an empathetic leader? How does someone recognize if they're doing it well or falling short? If there are some indicators of how they're thinking and feeling and doing? Or is there some ways that you can know that I'm doing a good job with this or I'm not?
Shola Kaye:
Well, I think it's interesting. About a couple of years ago, people started coming to me and saying things like, "Well, our leadership need to change. Their commands and control top down. Something needs to happen." And that's kind of when people are really getting into inclusive leadership. But I think with the empathy side of things, I always say it's curiosity is huge. So if a leader who can be curious before you make your decisions, you are asking people, you're not making assumptions because all too often, if you are in the workplace, there's so much going on that you're going to, "Okay, oh, so-and-so's done this, that's why."
If you can hold off on the assumptions and the judgment and ask, I think that's a huge first step towards being more empathetic. If you are somebody who is open and also open to being told, not necessarily that you will have to do what this person is implying that you should do or change, but just open, receptive to hearing something different, something fresh. Because a lot of times people think that empathy means agreement. And it doesn't mean agree, it just means understand. They're two different things.
So I think if you're comfortable hearing a range of responses or different ideas and you are strong within that. And one, I was doing some work for a pharmaceutical company and I was interviewing a senior leader, and he was saying he loves to share his opinions, but he will say to his team, "I'm going to tell you what I think, but I want to hear all of you say why this is wrong or why it won't work." So there's kind of a strength, I think, that comes from being empathetic because you will hear different opinions, you will hear different experiences, different emotions, different feelings. So I think you have to have quite a lot of, not necessarily confidence, but just your okay absorbing different perspectives, and that doesn't threaten you.
Carol Parker Walsh:
Yeah. Yeah. Where does vulnerability play in that? I know you talked about curiosity, but is vulnerability a piece of it?
Shola Kaye:
It is, to be honest. Because in a couple of ways, and Deloitte did a big study on inclusive leadership a few years ago, and they said that vulnerability or humility are kind of one of the traits of an inclusive leader. And vulnerability comes up in a couple of ways because on the one hand, you need to be vulnerable because sometimes you'll have to open up first for people to trust you, to then share back so that you can be empathetic. So vulnerability certainly comes up there.
And then also vulnerability when you're hearing what people are sharing or what they've been exposed to or what they're feeling. Because it takes vulnerability to be open enough to truly absorb and process rather than being like, I call it my brittle leaders or where they've got like a force field around them that you can't penetrate them. And so it takes vulnerability to let that force field come down to show that you truly understand, that you're moved, that you're touched, you're affected by what you're hearing.
Carol Parker Walsh:
Mm-hmm. Okay. This was so amazing. So I have just one more question for you. What does being a Career Rebel mean to you, and how would you put that in the context of the things that we've been talking about today?
Shola Kaye:
Hmm. I think it's interesting. A couple of weeks ago I put a post on LinkedIn and a young manager responded and he said, "You know what? I'm so pleased that there's this move towards empathetic leadership because I've had two managers in the past who said to me, 'You'll never succeed. You're too empathetic. You won't go very far at all.'" And he said, "Well, look, so be it. I'm going to be this kind of Rebel leader, if you like, and still be an empathetic individual." And he felt so vindicated by where we are going with this now because he's being acknowledged for his skills that he has.
So I think, for me, yeah, being a Rebel leader is being okay doing it your own way and putting your values... I mean, it depends what your values are, right? But I mean, putting your values in terms of being human-centric, valuing other people, putting those first, and not being afraid that that will make you less successful as a leader.
Carol Parker Walsh:
I love that. And to me, I think that's great advice for wanting to cultivate the ability to be an empathetic leader. I think that's a great skill to have, to be bold enough to want to not only improve your own ability to be empathetic, but also to make sure that that's felt and realized within your team or the organization you're working with, wouldn't you say?
Shola Kaye:
Yeah, I would agree. I agree. You get people saying, "Well, I want to be that kind of leader, but I'm in an organization that doesn't seem to encourage it." And sometimes you have to do it your way, and then show the success that your team is achieving and then let that be the lesson that you can be successful as an empathetic leader.
Carol Parker Walsh:
I love that. So awesome. Such great information, Shola. Thank you so much. Where can people reach you? Is there a resource or anything that people can get from you that may help them to further their understanding in this conversation around empathy and inclusive leadership?
Shola Kaye:
Yes, absolutely. So I'm excited. I've got a new book deal that's just been announced, and there'll be more about that later, but that book won't be out probably till next year. So in the short term, what you can do is on my website, sholakaye.com, there's a banner there for a white paper or a research paper on empathy in the workplace. So I'm sure, Carol, I can give you the links. But feel free to go to my website, sign up for that. It's a very readable research paper with information from a series of different senior leaders from big companies around the globe, like IBM and yeah, different companies, and it's them sharing their opinion on why empathy is so important and how we can really sort of practically make sure that we create empathetic workplaces. So yeah, please do grab hold of that.
Carol Parker Walsh:
Yeah, that sounds like an amazing resource. And we'll definitely make sure to have all the links so that you can reach Shola on LinkedIn and her website and to get your hands on that white paper. I think that'll be great, particularly if you're trying to make a business case for really having a more empathetic environment in your workplace. So thank you so much for being here, Shola, and sharing your brilliance and your knowledge with us today.
Shola Kaye:
Thank you, Carol. Thank you so much. I really enjoyed it. So thanks for the opportunity.
Carol Parker Walsh:
You are welcome. And that's it for today, Rebels, that's another episode for you, one that you're going to definitely want to listen to again and maybe take some extra notes, things that you can take back into the workplace. And even think about in your own leadership how you're showing up and how you want to bring more empathy into the work that you do in the world.
I want to thank you so much for joining me, and stay tuned because we're going to have other amazing guests that you'll want to listen to and hear from. And in the interim, however, have an amazingly rebellious week and I'll see you soon.
