Carol:
Hey, hey, hey, Rebels. Welcome back to the podcast. I am so excited about this podcast because we're going to talk about a subject that is near and dear to my heart after spending so many years negotiating multi-million dollar contracts as an attorney and even working with my clients and negotiating. But we're going to go a little bit deeper in it today as well, because we're not only going to talk about negotiating your salary, but also the fear and the confidence that comes from being able to really ask for what you want.
What I'm most excited about is that we have a rockstar in the house, and I'm so honored that he is here. We have Kwame Christian, who is a two-time bestselling author, business lawyer, and founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute, a global consulting firm that specializes in negotiation and conflict resolution. He's also the host of the number one negotiating podcast in the world, Negotiate Anything with over 5 million downloads and listeners from all over the world. So, as I said, we have an obvious leader and rockstar in the house. So with that, Kwame, thank you so much for being here.
Kwame:
Hey, my pleasure, Carol. Thanks for having me.
Carol:
Yeah, so let's get into it. I'm just curious about your background because we're both fellow attorneys and have lived that life, but you have transitioned now and moved into creating this institute. So how did you come into negotiations and your expertise in that and creating this incredible platform for people to gain the skills and tools that they need to do this work well?
Kwame:
Well, it's a really interesting story because I'm a recovering people pleaser, and it was always hard for me to stand up for myself and have difficult conversations, and it wasn't until law school, when I just happened to take a negotiation course simply because it fit in my schedule, that I learned that this was a skill, not a talent. I could actually become better at it. So I was obsessed. So I was able to participate in a negotiation competition at the school and my partner, and we won the competition, that gave us the opportunity to represent the school at the American Bar Association Competition in Ottawa, Ontario, and we won that negotiation competition too.
So after that, I was hooked, and so more so than me negotiating, even though I enjoyed negotiating, because every time I stood up for myself and had a difficult conversation, it was a vote of confidence for the man I wanted to be. But even more than that, I enjoyed teaching other people because I figured there are probably other people out there just like me who are living limited lives because they're not willing to step up and have these conversations. So that's why I started the American Negotiation Institute, and our motto is we believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. So we want to help people to live the best version of their life, one difficult conversation at a time.
Carol:
Wow. I really love that. I love that it came from a very personal space of just not being used to asking for what you want and really understanding how to leverage that skillset to not only be able to raise your ability to be able to have more confidence in your conversations, but also to get what you want and then teach other people how to do it well. I love that that came from a personal space. It's something that when I work with my clients, I'm always talking about like, "Find that little thing that connects you to the work that you want to do in the world, and you'll never be unhappy in the work that you do when you find that connection." Is that what you find with the work that you're doing now?
Kwame:
Absolutely. Yeah.
Carol:
Yeah. Yeah.
Kwame:
The way that I came to this point, Carol, is, I was thinking, "How do I get here? How do I promote this message?" I was telling myself, "Okay, well, what I have to do is I need to practice law for an extended period of time. Then I could call myself a negotiation expert." But I started my own firm after doing some public policy work and I was practicing and I wasn't really loving it. So I asked myself, "What would I do if everything in the world was free?" I thought about that for a month and I realized, "Wait, I'm already doing it." Because in order to get clients, I would put on free negotiation workshops at different business development centers.
So the entrepreneurs would come to me because they liked the negotiation workshop, and I said, "I would just do the negotiation workshops all day because I love to see that aha moment," because people would say, "Wow, this could fundamentally change my business." Then, as they listened more, they said, "Hold on, this could fundamentally change my life. I could use this with my kids, with my family, with my spouse, all of these things." So they would leave the workshops just completely change, and I said, "If everything was free, that's what I would do." So that's when I started the podcast and incorporated the American Negotiation Institute.
Carol:
Gotcha. So you're a teacher at heart. So you started the podcast and you were teaching people. So you walked away from the practice and then you started the institute. What was that like to be able to get that going and set that up?
Kwame:
Yeah, it was interesting because I still wasn't fully confident in it because I started at age 27, and that's young as a lawyer, but it's incredibly young as somebody who was an aspiring negotiation expert. So I was still practicing law at the time and I said, "All right, this is an IP play." Somehow, American Negotiation Institute is still available. I think I have something there, and I start the podcast. So I said, "I'm going to just start building my brand and credibility as a negotiation expert this way, and after a few years maybe we'll see what happens." But then people were listening, the audience started to grow, and then people started to reach out for different trainings and consulting and things like that. I said, "Well, oh, my gosh, this is happening." So eventually I got to the point where I could shut down the law firm and just focus on this entirely.
Carol:
I love that so much, and I'm hoping people are listening to this, and this is a little bit of a side to what we're talking about. If you're thinking about what you're doing right now, just as in working with you or jiving with you. I think asking those questions and the journey that you went on is so beautifully done because most people think, "Well, if I don't like this, I have to jump into something different." You really took a journey. You start asking yourself, "What would I do for free?" You start paying attention to the things that you really love to do, and you lean more into doing that. You started the podcast... Well, you started teaching, then you did the podcast, then you thought about the institute, and then after that built momentum, you decided to transition into that full time.
I always tell people, it's a journey. You're always building the bridge from where you are to where it is that you want to be, and you just want to pay attention along the way so that you're making... I'm sure there were trials and errors along the way for you, but you pay attention to that, you course correct so that you can ultimately get to where you want to go. So I just wanted to really just put a pin in that story because I think it's such an amazing example of what it looks like to go from something that you realize isn't right to really exploring and stepping into something that really makes sense for you, that can really make it impact in the world and leave a legacy.
Kwame:
I appreciate that. I think what's interesting is that the challenges are sometimes they're very diverse and not always predictable. So when you think about some of the challenges you have, "Okay, well, Kwame, you got a master of public policy and a law degree, you could make a lot more money. First of all, why are you starting your own firm? Just go make big law money. You could do that."
Carol:
Yeah.
Kwame:
So there's a lot of skepticism that you have to work through. For my wife, bless her heart, very patient, but when she married me. We got married on graduation day from undergrad. The plan was she goes to med school, becomes a doctor. I go to law school, I become a lawyer, and this entrepreneurial route was not part of the plan. So for her, she had to adjust her financial expectations for a time as things grew. We're good now.
Carol:
Yeah. Sure.
Kwame:
But at that time it was a little bit dicey. So I think one of the things is it takes you a long time to get to that point of confidence, and not just confidence, but self-acceptance where you say, "Hmm, no, this isn't for me. I know what is. I'm going to make that decision and go this way." But then you also have to protect that decision. We often think we have to protect ourselves from people who are working against us, but sometimes it's the people who love us the most, that can give us the most trouble because they care about us and they're afraid we're making a tough decision.
Carol:
Yeah.
Kwame:
So it's challenging, but we have to stay focused. I think about it in terms of just being in business is a simple game of continuous progress, not quitting, and just surviving long enough to avail yourself to the benefits of compound interest. Because there wasn't anything big or viral that I did with the podcast that got me to this point. It's just continuously creating content, taking feedback, improving the content, and just being as generous as possible. Then at some point you get to this point where things start to generate momentum and it works. I think for me, though, what I would always say, it's nice to be validated, because if I made this saying and it didn't work, I would look dumb, Carol. But I would tell my family and friends, the difference between crazy and genius is success. I was crazy for a really long time. I was like, "You just wait, my time will come."
Carol:
"It's coming. It's coming." Well, listen, I love this. I know you could teach a masterclass in this, and I might have you come back and we'll talk about this as a topic for the podcast because there's so much we can unpack with that. But let's talk a little bit about salary negotiation and negotiating in general, since I know that is the wheelhouse for the work that you do. So what are some of the most common fears that you think come up with people when it comes to negotiating your salary? I'm curious, do you find that gender difference in that as well?
Kwame:
Yes, there is a gender difference and we should start there. There's a great book called The Confidence Code by Katty Kay and Claire Shipman, that does a really interesting analysis of just the differences in just how men and women are socialized and the interesting differences, minor differences in the way that the brand is designed that has an impact on the way that we navigate the world. But long story short and numerous studies have demonstrated this, men are simply more willing to ask.
When it comes to the performance within negotiation, if you have trained negotiators, there's not any study that says, "Oh, men negotiate better than women," not the case. But when it comes to salary negotiation, just the fact that you're willing to ask will make it more likely for you to succeed. Let me not say the majority, in a significant amount of these salary negotiations, it takes one quick conversation or one email and then you magically get money. So just being willing to do that first step of asking is a massive part of the process.
Carol:
I'm laughing because that is so funny. I think I was having a conversation with someone and they asked me something about the work that they would be doing and how much time would they be spending on a certain task within the job description versus something else that they would much rather do. It was funny, I said, "Well, you asked. You just say, 'Listen, here's my zone of genius and I work better here than there. Let's talk about how much time we're going to spend here or there.'"
It's so fascinating to me how it just never dawned on her to have that conversation. She was trying to figure out how to read between the lines without opening her mouth and asking, or just like you said, "If you just open up your mouth, you can get a little bit more money or get what you want." But why do you think, particularly for women, there's this lack of confidence or this fear? I'm sure probably what you me mentioned before, people pleasing I'm sure could be a factor. But what else have you seen that contributes to this lack of confidence to ask for what you want or what you believe you're worth?
Kwame:
Boys are socialized to be more competitive, and a lot of times when women are advocating for themselves or competing socially, they're penalized for it. So if boys on the playground are playing, they're playing sports and things like that, and sometimes if a girl wants to go play with the boys, sometimes a well-meaning parent or a teacher might say, "Oh, no, no, go play over here. You might want to do something else." Throughout life there are these subtle signals that girls and women receive that say, "You should not be engaging in this behavior." So that holds them back, and so what ends up happening is that it makes the women less likely or less comfortable to advocate for themselves than a similarly situated man. That's the societal component.
One simple mental shift that I've told some of the people that I work with when they struggle to advocate for themselves is that, "You have to think about the person that you are going to help with your success. So for instance, if you are a mother and you have children, you're not advocating for yourself, you're advocating for your children. If you go and you get this money, then that money goes to your children." What's interesting, and I'd be interested to see if you've seen this just in general, but also in law too, there's some lawyers who are fierce advocates for their clients, incredibly good negotiators for their clients, but then they never advocate for themselves within the firm to move to the upper echelon of the firm. There's a mental block. I think once we can realize that, just eliminating that block or just acknowledging it will make a significant difference in the way you negotiate.
Carol:
Yeah, I love that. I think you've said two key things here, and I think you're true. I think women are just socialized not to ask, not to demand, not to be seen, not to make a lot of noise, not to be disruptive, and that if we do any of those things that, you are right, we're penalized for it because we're seen as bossy or pushy or a bitch, or any of the other kind of connotations that get relayed to a woman when she puts herself forward. So what I hear so often is the fear is, "They're going to withdraw the offer or they're not going to want me, or they're going to perceive me as being that rude, obnoxious, demanding person before I even walk in the door," like you said.
So I think you're right. I think the socialization piece is really huge. But I also love the reframe because I think it's playing with the stereotype because women generally... Again, I'm stereotyping, but generally we're taught to be helpful and to think about everybody else but ourselves to be supportive and helpful to other people, to our children, to our friends, to our family. So I love the reframe of thinking about it from this perspective that, "You're going to be helping other people by asking for the raise, for asking for what you want. Look at the benefit it's going to have for other people."
I love that, because I think people who are so afraid to do it for themselves will feel more empowered because they can do it for others. You're right, fierce negotiators, I have seen that in law in so many other places. They are fierce when it comes to their children. They are the first ones at the PTA meetings, they are in the superintendent's face, if something happens or goes wrong with their children, but when it comes to asking for something that they want, there's a challenge. But I love that reframe. I think that is so, so powerful.
Kwame:
Thank you. Yeah, it gives you the license to do what you need to do, and I think that's really what it's all about.
Carol:
So I love that as a reframe, but what are maybe some other kind of strategies or tips that you have found to be really helpful to help people bolster their sense of confidence in being able to ask for what they want?
Kwame:
One of the things that we have to recognize is that sometimes if we are not willing to negotiate for more value, sometimes the reason we don't negotiate for more value is because we don't believe in our own value. We have to remind ourselves of what value we bring to the table. So one of the things that I've been doing is keeping a list of compliments that people have given me. So whenever I feel down, I go back and I listen to that, "Okay, there are people in the world who believe in me. There is not some global conspiracy to be nice to Kwame Christian. Okay. So if these random people are saying this, it matters." So I think one thing we should do is start collecting the compliments that we receive. So we can have objective proof of the value we bring.
We have to have some friends, some confidants that we can go to and say, "Hey, what value do you think I bring to an organization? I just want to actually hear it from your perspective." Then sometimes even going to your manager, and this is a smart move to make as you're setting yourself up for a future negotiation, maybe in the next weeks or months coming up, just say, "I'd like to get some feedback on my performance in general." You get the general feedback, and then you just ask specifically, "What value do you think I bring to the team?" Now, you're getting them to articulate your value to you, and you write down what it is.
What's really interesting, Carol, is sometimes you're surprised at the value you bring because you might just think it's A, B, and C, but then they add one, two, three on top of that. "Oh, I didn't realize that you saw that as valuable. That was just me being me. I wasn't even trying there. That's good to know." So then in the subsequent negotiation, when you're articulating your value, you're using the words that your manager used when they were articulating your value.
Carol:
That is so genius and so simple, just asking, "What value do I bring to the table," so that you can hear it, articulate it through someone else's lens and someone else's view. I think that is so powerful. One of the work that I do with my clients is helping them develop their brand, which is really all about being able to articulate their value, their promise of value, in terms of what they bring to the table. I also noticed that Harvard Business Review is doing an entire month dedicated to articulating your value. So just really understanding how powerful and important this is for people to understand it.
I think if we talk about the gender differences as well, women are so less prone to think about their accomplishments, and think about their wins, and think about their successes and things that they accomplished, and thinking that it's either bragging or it's commonplace. Doesn't everyone do it? It's not different or special, if they do something amazing or if they hear something of value, it could potentially downplay it as opposed to really playing it up to bolster their confidence and sense of self-worth.
Have you found that through your work or studies with people through the institute, and how do you help them to really stop undervaluing and downplaying what they bring to the table even when someone gives them all those kudos and praises for their work?
Kwame:
Yeah, I think there are sometimes where people need to do some deep reflection as to what makes them feel so uncomfortable with positivity. I remember one time one of my teammates complimented me and I gave a brief thank you and moved on in the conversation and she said, "No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not going to allow you to protect yourself with the shield of thank you. I want you to fully absorb this." Sometimes it can feel uncomfortable and it's different for different people, but sometimes it can feel uncomfortable. But we have to recognize the objective reality that that discomfort is going to have a negative impact on our ability to negotiate and articulate our value to other people.
I think back to one of my guests one time, we were talking about introverts and negotiation, and she says, "I think about the term extrovert as a verb. I am an introvert, but sometimes I need to extrovert and it doesn't feel comfortable, but I know strategically there are going to be pockets in my day where I need to turn it up a little bit, and then afterwards I decompress. I go by myself in my little dark room." I think we can take that same methodology to these conversations, "Okay, I understand that for whatever reason, I'm not comfortable talking about how awesome I am, but for the next 13 minutes, I'm going to get over it and do it."
I think this is one of the things that we have to really, really appreciate. I need to be careful with the way I articulate this. There's no human that feels good all the time. That's not possible.
Carol:
No.
Kwame:
That's the first thing. The second thing is, if comfort is what we are constantly going for, we have to recognize that that will come at the expense of growth.
Carol:
Mm-hmm.
Kwame:
So a lot of times, the discomfort that we feel in these conversations, it's not a signal that we're doing the wrong thing. Sometimes it's a signal that, "This is a conversation of consequence that matters, and my body is getting geared up for an interaction of consequence." That's it, right?
Carol:
Yeah.
Kwame:
Your body is doing exactly what it should be doing in this situation. It would be weird if you felt okay all the time in difficult conversations. You don't feel comfortable, yeah, that's a human thing, and you still need to keep moving forward because the value on the other side is worth it.
Carol:
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I always say that you should want to throw up a little bit in your mouth, that you know you're moving in the right direction. If you're a little queasy and you want to throw up a little bit in your mouth, right? Because discomfort is the currency of dreams. It is the pathway through to get what you want. You got to pass through the eye of that needle. Pearls just don't fall out the sea, right? Diamonds just don't appear. They have to go through this period of honing and of discomfort in order to get there. So there's a pathway of discomfort if you want to get to the golden ring, if you will, or whatever that prize, or whatever your dreams are. So I love that. That is so good, so good.
Kwame:
Thank you.
Carol:
Yeah.
Kwame:
I like that quote, "Discomfort is the currency of dreams." Oh, it's perfect. I love that.
Carol:
Expand this a little bit, because I think we've been talking around it, because this is not just with salary negotiations, right? It's like with just difficult conversations generally that you would have throughout your career, even if you're asking for promotion or you want to take on a new project or other conversations that you would have. Is there a difference in terms of the strategy or the skills do you feel that you would need in order to negotiate your salary or to have just some of those difficult commonplace conversations that you would have?
Kwame:
No, I would not say that there's a difference in skills. There will be a slightly nuanced approach considering the context. So, for instance, as a lawyer, as a CEO, as a husband, as a father, I use all the same negotiation tactics, but it sounds very different. So if I'm in a difficult conversation with Whitney and she says, "You sound like a lawyer right now." Trust me, that's not a compliment. That means I'm messing up. If I'm in a negotiation with opposing counsel and they're like, "You sound like a loving, supportive spouse."
Carol:
"[inaudible 00:25:05] sometimes I'm not on the stand, Carol."
Kwame:
Yes, there you go. There you go, right. Yes, I get characterized that way a lot of times. So yeah, we have to flex in these different circumstances, but I think when you keep your skillset really tight and you can learn to be nimble depending on the circumstance, that's where it becomes really, really fun because it becomes a puzzle. I know I have the tools. I'm just curious to see how the tools will manifest themselves in these conversations.
So of course we have the compassionate curiosity framework, acknowledging and validating emotions, getting curious with compassion, joint problem solving. That's what I flow through a lot of times. I tell people just in general, "If you want be a better negotiator, all you need to do is ask better questions, become a better listener, and manage emotions. If you can just manage to do those things with consistency during these conversations, you're going to have good results." But it's about putting it into practice and actually taking the step to have the conversation. Because a lot of times, especially when it comes to advancing your career, you're your own advocate. You can't rely on somebody else to advocate for you. It's your responsibility.
I can think about it for me, as a CEO who genuinely cares about my staff. Sometimes I'm so busy doing my own thing that I forget, "Oh, personnel things. Yeah, it's time for this person to get a promotion." It's just off my radar. So sometimes you're going to have to be that person who reminds the manager, "Hey, it's been a year. It's been 18 months. I've been exceptional. It's time, and we just need to start the conversation." Then if you have the skills, you can flow within the conversation.
Carol:
I love that. I love that. So thinking about context matter, the skills are there, but context matters. There's other thing, and I think this may be a gender thing as well or not, but there's this kind of concept around win or lose when it comes to negotiating or even in difficult conversations that you're having that there needs to be a victor and someone needs to lose, which I think takes away from one of the things that you said around compassion and listening that come at play in these kind of conversations.
Have you seen that at work or had to talk to people about, this is not about necessarily win or lose. Because I think some people, if they try to negotiate, I mean, I get everything they ask for or as much as they ask for or things of that nature may feel defeated or feel like it didn't work or feel like they weren't strong enough. So I just want to explore this idea of that it's not this either, or this black or white, this win-lose kind of concept, and I would love for you to speak on that a little bit.
Kwame:
Yeah, ultimately, negotiation is about progress. That's what it's about. If you negotiate well, you can have progress in every negotiation. You should, regardless of the outcome. Because if I have a negotiation with my manager, for example, let's just stay in the employment context, and I don't get exactly what I'm asking for. If I'm doing exactly what I said before, if I'm using compassionate, curiosity, if I'm asking questions, listening and managing my emotions, then I should at least get through this conversation with more information, or I get through this conversation with more information, and I was intentional about creating a deeper connection and relationship with the other person throughout the process, regardless of the outcome.
So as long as we're progressing, that's what we need to really focus on. Because at the end of the day, a couple of things, first of all, we can't win them all, classic T-ball line, but it's just realistic. Not all deals are meant to be made. For me, I don't think about negotiation as the art of deal making. I think about it as the art of deal discovery. I'm coming together with the other person to try and see whether or not a deal exists. If there is a deal to be had, great. If not, that's fine too. But I'm going to engage in this process.
I think we have to have a bit of a paradigm shift with the way that we think about negotiation. Because you're right, that binary win-lose type of dichotomy can be really problematic because it assumes there's a fixed pie, and more for me means less for you and vice versa. But if we can go away from that mentality, we start to be a little bit more creative. What is it that you want? What is it that I want, and how can we help each other move forward? Because at the end of the day, every salary negotiation is a business deal. It's not a charitable type of thing.
I think a lot of times we might go to our leaders or our bosses or whatever it happens to be, and we feel like we're begging for compensation. They're making more money off of you. "So if I'm giving you more value, I should be getting more value. Let's have a conversation about that. Because the value equation that we had going into this, 18 months ago has, changed because I've gotten better. I've accomplished more, and I know you've benefited from that. So I should get a piece to that," and we can be a little bit creative during this process and think about what the company wants to do next and what part of my unique skillset can help to accelerate that growth." It's a business deal at the end of the day, and we're trying to help each other get closer to our ultimate goal.
Carol:
Yeah, I love that. What you're suggesting too, is that don't be so myopic in thinking is just, "My task and my duties," but understanding the impact of your role within the organization. I think that goes to what you said before about asking, "What value do I bring," around asking other people about that question so that you can see that you're just not a body, but that you're actually contributing value so that you can't see it as a transaction, "That I'm delivering this for an exchange for something of equal value." I love that. I love that.
I also love what you said, "Negotiation is about progress." That's a tweetable. That is awesome. Negotiation is a process because it does break us out of this kind of binary approach, to thinking about it, to knowing that just by the progress alone could be the fact that you started advocating for yourself or having a conversation and not allowing things to happen without your voice being a part of it. I think just even looking at it that way shows progress and shows the power of learning how to negotiate, learning how to speak up, and ask you for what you want could really make a big difference in your life. Yeah. Love it. Love it. Okay, so I just have one other question for you. What does it mean to be a career rebel? I know you have some thoughts.
Kwame:
I do have thoughts. I'm going to temper them and I will say them in a safer work type of way, because I get really passionate about that. I think being a career rebel is being willing to be yourself and live your life on your own terms. I think sometimes society can make us live small lives that are cookie cutter. "This is what people do, these are your options. You can do this. Don't do that. Most people don't." I mean, okay, most people don't. So we can live very small, constrained lives. Not even realizing that the barriers we put around ourselves are fake. Sometimes I hear some of my friends say, "Oh, I wish I could do this. I wish I could do that. I wish I could do this. I'm like, "Ah, do that."
Carol, one of my biggest points of pride. I got a text like this, I think last week there. There's a trail of friends who have quit their jobs after ranting sessions with me. "You know what? Kwame, you're right, I'm out of here." So they leave and do their own thing. I think just being willing to accept who you truly are and make decisions that move in that direction, that's what being a career rebel is. It's not necessarily moving against something. It's having the power, the confidence, and the faith in your own abilities to move in the direction that you were meant to go.
Carol:
Preach. I love that. That's so true. So, Kwame, listen, we're going to have all the links in every way that you could contact him for his books, the podcast, the institute. But what's happening for you? What do you want to share with people? Where can they find you?
Kwame:
Yes. So the best place is LinkedIn. I post every single day on LinkedIn. Also, check out the podcast, Negotiate Anything. Every single day on that podcast as well, I like to stay consistent, stay busy. Yeah. then I guess one of the cool things that we're working on now is we're going to start putting on some public workshops. So I'm really excited about that. So yeah, maybe coming to a city near you. I think New York is going to be our first stop in August, so really excited [inaudible 00:34:20]-
Carol:
Oh, fabulous. Oh, yes. Well, definitely get in on Kwame's LinkedIn so that you can stay in the know. So if one of those workshops pop up in your area, you can attend. Well, listen, thank you so much for being here. This was exceptional. You had dropped some gems and gave some fabulous insights that I think will really help people rethink about asking for what they want, using their voice, and really, whether it's in negotiations or at other conversations, to really step up to the plate. So I appreciate you being here. Thank you.
Kwame:
My pleasure. Thanks for the invite.
Carol:
Absolutely. Well, there you have it, Rebels. There's another episode for you. Some amazing content. There was a lot of gems in this one. So you're going to want to replay, get a pen, paper, listen, take notes, ask yourself some of the questions that Kwame you represented in this episode that I think will help you to really think about not only your value, but how to communicate that and really to be able to ask for what you want. Stay tuned for some more exciting episodes that we'll have coming up soon. But in the interim, have an amazingly rebellious week, and I'll see you soon.
