Carol Parker Walsh:
Hey, Rebels. Welcome to another episode of the podcast. We have another exciting guest today. Her name is Janine Esbrand. She, like me, is a fellow attorney turned consultant and coach. She's a highly acclaimed career strategist, executive coach, and speaker. And she's on a mission to help professionals, especially women, to approach their career development and advancement with intention and confidence. Her TEDx talk and keynote presentations have inspired thousands to take control of their careers and leverage their strengths to make true impact in the world. And I'm so happy that she's here today because that's exactly what we're going to talk about, which is how you can take the reins and really get in the driver's seat of your career so that you can become a CEO of your career. And with that, Janine, welcome to the podcast.
Janine Esbrand:
Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for that intro. I am super excited to have this conversation and, yeah, share with the audience.
Carol Parker Walsh:
Yes, it's so exciting. And I mentioned earlier that we both practiced law, and I would just love to hear... I want to ask you your career development, and maybe this could be a part of it, how you got to where you are now. But how did you go from law to here? I'd love to hear that story because... And if people are still questioning you, "Why aren't you practicing law anymore?" It's been 20 years for me, but I still get that question every now and again.
Janine Esbrand:
Yes. It's like, "Ooh, that's an interesting transition. Why would you do that?" For me, I started out, when I was really young, I wanted to be a lawyer. I decided I wanted to be a lawyer off the back of a conversation with my mom. In her frustration, she was like, "You should be a lawyer because you have an answer for everything," because I was quite opinionated as a child. And she sowed the seed then. And as I was growing up, I would watch programs like Ally McBeal and Law and Order, and I would think, ooh, that looks like a glamorous career. I'd love to do that. And that was really what sold it for me, that that was the thing that made me follow the path and do the studies and do all the things.
And in the UK, in order for you to qualify, after you go to law school, you have to do two years in a law firm working on a placement called a training contract. Once I got onto my training contract and I was working in it, I started to think, oh, this isn't quite what I thought it was going to be based on Ally McBeal and Law and Order. But I was still doing my work. But I had the opportunity to go on a mission trip. I went with a group of lawyers, we went to East Africa, and we were doing some work on the ground. We were going into prisons and we were educating prisoners about their legal rights because many of them had been arrested and put in prison because they weren't able to pay a bribe, because there was a lot of corruption. And we were able to support them with knowing what they needed to do and how to represent themselves. And then we went into villages and we were educating people about child protection rights. And it was just so, so impactful. We were only there for a short time, but so much ground.
And I came away changed. I was like, "Okay, we've just done some really impactful work." I was back in my office working in the... At that time, I was in the litigation department and we were chasing unpaid gas bills. We were working for a gas company; we were advising a gas company. And I was literally just emailing people asking them why they hadn't paid. And I was just thinking, what am I doing? Two weeks ago, I was in a dusty prison in Kenya fighting for freedom for people, and now I'm chasing people to pay bills. The contrast was crazy to me.
And so at that point I was thinking, okay, I want to do something that's going to be impacting people on a personal level. But I've also worked very hard to get to this point in my career, and I don't want to walk away from it completely, so I started looking at, well, what could I do? And I came across various different things like human rights law and other things that I just felt like, no, I don't think that's quite it.
And I remember coming across an advert for the Coaching Academy, and it said, "Come for a two-day taster." And I was like, "What's coaching?" Started looking into it, went for this two day. And literally, Carol, when I got in the room and they were sharing about what coaching was, I was like, "Oh my goodness, I've always been a coach, I just didn't know it." I've always been the type of person to look at where can we go from here? I know this has happened in the past, but what are we going to do? What's our strategy? How are we moving forward? And always looking at the positives and helping people to see the positive sides of themselves and uncover their strengths. I just would naturally be that friend that people would always come to.
And so when I realized there was a whole industry, I was like, "Oh my goodness." And I went down a rabbit hole, and I got my certification alongside my legal career. And I was happy doing both. I had a portfolio career, so I was working as a lawyer. I was a corporate lawyer at the time, and then I was starting to coach people on the side.
And it worked really well as a portfolio career until it didn't. Lockdown happened, the pandemic happened. And I have two young children. And so I remember one particular day where I was working as in-house counsel for a startup and I was on the call, and they were like, "Janine, we need to turn this contract around by tomorrow. Can we do that?" I'm like, "Yeah, absolutely." Jump off that call and then jump on a coaching call with a client.
Meanwhile, my kids are in the background being like, "Mommy, can I have a snack?" And I was like, "Okay, this is too much. I can't do all the things." And so I had to have an honest conversation with myself and say, "Look, what are you going to do? Are you going to go back to lawyering full-time or are you going to give this business a shot? Just go all in with a coaching, consulting, speaking and all of that." And I didn't like the idea of lawyering and leaving the business alone because I just loved coaching, and so I decided to go all in in 2021. And that's what I've been doing since then.
Carol Parker Walsh:
That is so fabulous. I love that story. It's always interesting to me the journey that people take in and out of law. I think we've talked before, because I had the privilege of being a guest on your podcast, that I think when I started practicing in the late '80, early '90s, there wasn't this thing called coaching. Or it wasn't really a thing, coaching and organizational development and leadership development, it was basically just skills you would take. Or if there was coaching, it would be to correct behavior, it would be to approve something that was wrong in order to either probably prove that they tried before they fired you or really to try to rehabilitate you. It really wasn't a thing.
And I think back, if that was a thing back then, I think I probably would've went into coaching too because I had the same experience when I started moving. And I realized I was doing it too, but once I got into the field and started doing it more, I'm like, "Where has this been all my life?" I love that you found the same thing, yeah. And to really make an impact, it's great.
Before I move on, I just want you to do something really quick. You've said the term portfolio career. And just for the listeners who... I think I may have described it before in a previous podcast, but I would love for you just to explain what is a portfolio career?
Janine Esbrand:
Yeah, so a portfolio career is essentially where you don't just do one thing and you have multiple things that you're doing that make up your time at work. And I think now more and more people are realizing that that's an option. You may have different passions or different things that you want to do, and you don't necessarily have to only do one.
The thing that I enjoyed about lawyering and coaching is that both of them required different skillsets and I got to use different parts of my brain and I got to use different things that I was good at in both spaces. And so sometimes we can be trying to find everything that we want in our career from one role. And for some people, that doesn't work. Sometimes it's actually, I'm going to do my full-time job here. There's something I'm passionate about that might not pay the bills, but I could do it on the side. Right?
Carol Parker Walsh:
Yeah.
Janine Esbrand:
And sometimes that's required for people to find the fulfillment that they want rather than trying to fit everything into the one role, which may not exist.
Carol Parker Walsh:
Yeah. I love that you said that because I often tell people this magical unicorn of the perfect job... For some people, they do find it. And that's great. They found something that they love, they do it till their retire, but for a lot of people, they are multi-passionate and they do have multiple talents and skills and they love to be able to utilize their gifts over here in one way and then utilize some others in a completely different way. And so I love this idea of a portfolio career because it gives you the opportunity to really live fully into all of your gifts as opposed to thinking you have to find just one thing. And I keep telling people it's a myth to me in a lot of ways that there's this perfect job out there. There's always opportunities to do so many different things depending on where you are in your life, what interests you, what makes the most sense. Like you said, when the kids were running around and life changed for you, you thought differently about what you wanted to really prioritize your time with. And I think having a portfolio career allows you to be able to do that in a lot of ways.
Janine Esbrand:
Yeah. And I think it's important to recognize that the person that you are in your early 20s is not the same person that you are in your 30s or your 40s or your 50s, right?
Carol Parker Walsh:
Yes.
Janine Esbrand:
And so rather than feeling like I made a decision in my 20s and I need to stick to what I decided to do, it's like, well, you are actually a different person to who you were back then. A lot of things have happened. Life probably has shifted for you in various different ways. And so it's okay to reinvent yourself and say, "That was what I did for a season, and now I want to do something different." We can do that.
Carol Parker Walsh:
Yes. Yes. You have permission.
Janine Esbrand:
Yes, you have permission.
Carol Parker Walsh:
Those of you who are listening. We're talking about really taking the reins. And I think one of the ways to take the reins is, as you even described with a portfolio career as an option, but what do you think in terms of cultivating this idea of being a CEO of your career? For you, what does that mean? And how can women really cultivate the skills, the mindset to be able to step into that role?
Janine Esbrand:
Yeah. Yeah, so the reason why I like talking about this is I think as I've grown as a business owner and developed some of the skillsets that are required for you to run a business, I've realized more and more the parallels between what you need to be able to do to run a business and what you need to do to run a successful career. And if you think about a CEO of a company, there's really two things that a CEO of a company has to focus on. The first is the vision. Why do we even exist as a company? Where are we trying to go? What are we trying to achieve? Who do we want to be in the market? And the second is the strategy. Now we've got the vision, how are we going to make that a reality? And I think for a lot of people who are going through their careers, they don't spend a lot of time on the vision piece and they're too much in the doing piece before they've established what am I even trying to create here?
And so to be the CEO of your career really means I'm going to take ownership of where I want to end up and be intentional about the action steps that I actually take to get there. It means you're going to take the time to actually say, "Okay, in this season, where do I want to be?" Let's take away the, "Will I be able to make that happen? Is that even possible, though? I don't think I could do that here." Forget that, forget how, let's talk about the what first. What is it that I want to do? What is it that I want to create?
And then once you've established that, then you can move onto, "Okay, if I want that to be a reality within this particular timeframe, what are the best steps that I could take to get there?" And those steps might include having to get support, that might include having to enlist some help from different people, but at least you know where you are heading. And once you know where you're heading, then you can figure out your strategy.
And I think that's a shift in mindset for a lot of women in particular because often we wait for the external factors and the external permission to tell us what's possible for us. It's like, okay, well I've seen another woman do that, and so I think it's possible for me. But if I haven't seen anyone do it, then I don't think I can. And it's like, well, we know that to be true, though. And so I think it helps to empower people to say, "Just because something hasn't been done before doesn't mean I can't be the first person to do it." The same way if you think about the biggest CEOs or the most well known CEOs that we know, if we think of Amazon and we think of Apple, we think of the ones that you remember and we know about are the ones who did something different to literally change the way we do life. Right?
Carol Parker Walsh:
Mm-hmm.
Janine Esbrand:
And so you, as an individual, you have the opportunity to do amazing things with your career if you think outside of the box. I'd say that's how I [inaudible 00:13:28].
Carol Parker Walsh:
I love that. Yeah. And it's interesting, I think when I started doing this work, what I thought was fascinating... And even it was my own experience when I started even making the transition, thinking about what I wanted to pivot into when I decided to start my business was just really asking myself what do I want to do? What matters to me? And where do I see myself in the next few years?
And so I asked myself those questions. And I remember when I first started doing the work, I would ask other women the question, the same question. And it was just surprising to me, although it shouldn't have been because I didn't ask myself those questions until very much later in my life, that they never asked themselves what they wanted. Everything was guided by what a boss said, what a mentor said, what a well-meaning friend had said, or what they believed to be the typical projection of their career, the trajectory that, well, if I'm here, then I obviously need to go here, and then I obviously need to go there. Do I want to do that? Does that make sense? I don't know, but it's what I should do because it's what's been designed for me without me even really thinking about it. And so I think that is so powerful when you talked about having a vision, having that clarity, knowing what you want, and where do you want to go? Why do you think it's so hard for women to really ask and answer that question for themselves?
Janine Esbrand:
I think particularly when you're thinking about lawyers or professionals who are in spaces or in roles that require you to go through a lot of education and take a certain step after step after step, as you described, it's difficult because the path is laid out. It's like, I want to be a lawyer, and so you then become a lawyer, and then you are working towards being an associate, and then you're working towards being a partner. And it's just laid out. And so if you start on that path, there's so much investment that's gone into you getting there, right?
Carol Parker Walsh:
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Janine Esbrand:
And so there's that sunk cost fallacy where it's like, oh, I've done all of this, and so I have to keep going. Why would I step off the treadmill? And so I think it's the facts that everything is so laid out. And there's also the element of the pace at which we're moving through life. There's so much going on all of the time. You do one thing, and as soon as you finish that one thing, you're onto the next thing. If you're a high achiever, you don't take time to reflect on what you've done and really take it all in. It's like, "Okay, next. What am I doing next? What's the next milestone?"
And so if you are always thinking about what's next and you then also have the path already laid out, it's like, have you taken the time to actually reflect on how do I feel about hitting this milestone? Do I feel the way I thought I was going to feel? Is this really what I still want? And I think people struggle to take that time out if they don't have that external person like a coach or a mentor asking them the questions because they've been on this path and they do things...
Ultimately, you think how you think, unless there's a pattern interrupt. If you've been thinking this way and you've just been going this way, unless there's someone else or an external factor that's going to get you to question, you are unlikely to do that. And so that's why coaching is so powerful.
Carol Parker Walsh:
Yeah, totally. Man, that is such a good point. You're right, because if you... These external markers and external validation for hitting those markers can be so overwhelmingly powerful that, you're right, you either don't look for the pattern interrupt or you struggle or resist any pattern interrupt because you're like, "But wait a minute, isn't this what I'm supposed to do?" I think the societal pressure on women to... particularly high achieving women who are always going after that brass ring to then to stop and say, "Well, you don't have to go after the brass ring," or, "It doesn't matter what other people think of you or how other people are defining your career. Or just because they're praising you for the fact that you reached director or VP, if you don't want to be there, that's really the thing that matters." And I think it's hard to reconcile this external acceptance and validation with maybe some intrinsic motivation to disrupt that pattern and choose your path as opposed to the societally acceptable path.
Janine Esbrand:
Yeah. When you talk about worrying about what other people think, there's so many assumptions that people make. It's like, okay, if I'm on this path, even if I wanted to consider moving off this path, I couldn't because I wouldn't be able to get paid the same amount, and I'm the main primary breadwinner in my family or I'm the person who's expected to do this, this, and this, and so it's almost like I'm trapped here because there isn't anything else I can do.
And what I find interesting with clients that I work with is when I ask them the question, "How do you know that?" They haven't done research, they haven't had conversations, they haven't actually explored any alternatives, but they seem to know as fact that they can't get any other role that's going to pay them on par with what they're getting paid now. And so I think you have to watch that. It's like, what assumptions am I making about what's possible? And actually, what if I took the steps to do some research? What if I took the steps to find out and gather the data so I can actually make an informed decision about whether or not I can or can't move? Versus an assumption that's going to keep you where you are. And it may not be necessary.
Carol Parker Walsh:
Absolutely. I always tell my clients is that little crazy tricky little brain of theirs that's feeding them this information because whenever we try to take just even the slightest step out of our comfort zone, fear kicks in, and our brain is going to do whatever it can to protect us from feeling emotionally uncomfortable or traumatized. Just like what you said, the thought of I'm going to go bankrupt or I'll never find another job or I'm going to lose my respect or... And of course it goes to the extremes. Just the thought of making a change or a pivot, it leads straight to bankruptcy and death. And it's just our brain trying to say, "Okay, I don't know what's going on, but I know you feel a lot of anxiety, and so in order for me to protect you, let me try to squash that anxiety by telling you all these lies and all this nonsense to keep your foot right back into that comfort zone."
And you're right. And I think what you said is the best way to challenge that, which is to ask yourself, "Is it true?" Where's the data? Show be evidence that supports all of these fears being reality and not just assumptions or things that are happening in your mind. I think that is so powerful, that's so excellent.
Janine Esbrand:
Yeah, absolutely. Look for possibility models. Do I have evidence of other people being able to do this in the past? I remember working with a client who, she'd been in her company for 11 years, she worked in sales, and she was in the oil and gas industry. And it was really misaligned with her values. She didn't want to work in the oil and gas industry to the point where she was embarrassed about what she did and she wouldn't share where she worked with people. And I said to her, "You can transition. You could totally transition." She's like, "Yeah, but I'm the primary breadwinner, my family, and I can't take a pay cut." I was like, "I know, but you can transition."
And she ended up moving into the decarbonization space. She got a promotion, she got a salary increase, she negotiated flexibility. And I was like, "What would you tell yourself from a few months ago? Because you thought this wasn't possible. And all of the things that you said would be ideal, that seemed impossible, you've literally ticked those off your list." And so looking for if you can't have it for yourself, looking at other people who have made the type of transition that you're considering and having conversations to see, "Okay, this is actually possible. Another human being has done it. And if they could do it, I could do it," is super, super powerful and helpful when you are in that I'm doubting what's possible phase.
Carol Parker Walsh:
I love that. And I love the term possibility models. I think that is such a great term. One of the things that this reminds me of, and I would love to get your thoughts around this, is that I have my clients do what I call a pilot study. Because before what I did my dissertation, we had to run a pilot to just see if it was right to check the research and are we on the right track? That brings up how important is it for when you're in this process, when you're learning to take the reigns, stepping into the CEO, taking control of your career to not do it in isolation, to really get out there and have conversations, to look for those possibility models, to talk to other people? How important is that process in the journey of really stepping into being CEO of your career?
Janine Esbrand:
Yeah, that part of the process is vital. It's going to save you time. It's going to save you time, possibly resources for you to have conversations with people. The general term is informational interviews; I call them golden nugget conversations. And the reason I call them golden nugget conversations is that you can literally have a 20-minute conversation with someone, and that conversation can save you years going down the wrong path or it can accelerate where it is you're going to get to because someone can tell you, "Oh yeah, you need to do this, this, and this," you go do this, this, and this, and then you can make your transition a lot quicker.
And so I think when you're in the season of exploring and you really want to know is this what I want to set my vision around, have conversations. It's the quickest way. Even if you're saying, "I think my vision is that I want to step up into leadership, I want to be in the C-suite," go and speak to someone who's there and really find out what are the realities of the day-to-day? Because I think oftentimes people will focus on the title of, "Oh, I want to be this, I want to be that." But as I found out when I thought, oh, I want to be a lawyer, the day-to-day of being a lawyer is a lot of reading, a lot of paper, a lot of drafting, a lot of late nights, a lot, and not a lot of what I thought it was, which is, oh, I get to speak to people and I get to really help people and really make an impact. It's like, yeah, there's that part, but also there's other things.
When you have conversations with people and you ask them questions like, "Can you just describe what is a typical day for you? What are the things about your job that you really enjoy? What don't you enjoy?" So you get a real picture of what it would look like to place yourself in that role. And then you may say, "Do you know what? This doesn't sound like it works for my lifestyle and what I want in this season." Or you might say, "Yeah, this sounds like I really want to explore this." Vital to have conversations.
Carol Parker Walsh:
Love it, love it. Not to do it in isolation. How do you deal with the self-doubt and the imposter syndrome that kicks in? I love how you started with the parallel of how a CEO runs their business. You want to think about the same way in running your career. But there's a lot of women, particularly those high achieving women who have reached pinnacles who are just already struggling with the belief that they deserve where they are to begin with, but even to believe they can actually do something different. How do you help women really overcome and manage those things?
Janine Esbrand:
Yeah. I think the biggest thing is causing them to take stock and reflect on what they've actually achieved. Because even people who are in roles and they're like, "Oh my gosh, do I deserve to be here?" Oftentimes when I speak to women like that and I ask them about things that they've done, there is a lot of glossing over experience. There's been times where I'll have conversations with people and they'll say things like, "Oh yeah, and I just did this thing," and it's major. And I have to say, "Hold on, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Rewind. Say that again. You did what now? You managed what? What was the budget on that project you did?" And they're like, "Oh yeah, actually, that was pretty..." It's like because you're so used to just doing and getting the praise for doing well, you're not actually taking in what you did.
And I think when I say taking what you did, it isn't just about, oh yeah, we got that project over the line or we advised that client, you need to really lean into what was the impact of what you were able to do? And what was your contribution? Because sometimes people will say, "Oh, it was a group effort, it was a team effort," it's like, okay, yes, okay, yes, but if you didn't do your part, what would've happened or what wouldn't have happened?
And so I encourage people to really take the time to go back and look at their experience and do an exercise where you're going through your career history and looking for milestones and markers where you've had incredible results, where you've received incredible feedback, where you've really moved the needle. And then what I tell people to do is write all that down, and then I want you to read it as though you're reading it about someone else. Take your name off the paper and replace it with someone else and read it with that lens because I guarantee if you read it as though you're reading about someone else, you're going to give that person more credit than you would give yourself.
Carol Parker Walsh:
Yeah, that is so true. I always tell my clients, I'm like, "If a million dollar deal went through and your role was to lick the stamps to drop the thing in the mail, you helped land a million dollar deal."
Janine Esbrand:
100%.
Carol Parker Walsh:
Every piece of that is necessary. For a car to run, the tire doesn't think it's less significant than the engine. And if one of those goes out, I don't care if the engine is functioning, the car will not.
Janine Esbrand:
The car's not going anywhere.
Carol Parker Walsh:
Every piece is necessary for that to... And every role that you played and a part of that is required and necessary. I love that. I love that. Yeah.
Janine Esbrand:
And if it wasn't, they wouldn't be paying you. Why they hired you, because your role is necessary. Right?
Carol Parker Walsh:
Exactly.
Janine Esbrand:
And so if they hired you for the role, they're paying you to do the work, and you're doing the work and you're doing it exceptionally well... is what I say. Own it.
Carol Parker Walsh:
Absolutely own it, own it, yes, and know your contribution that you're making. I love the two things around vision and strategy. Are there some other advice or components of really taking the reins and stepping up as a CEO of your career that you would advise or share for women?
Janine Esbrand:
Yeah. Other pieces of it that would come under the strategy piece is you thinking about your visibility. In order for you to make the vision a reality, the likelihood is, whether it's within your organization or externally, people need to know who you are and what you can bring to the table. That visibility piece, it's like how are you actually marketing yourself and talking about your expertise and the skillset that you have and the value that you can bring? Those are things that, in a company, you need to be visible and advertise. You need to have marketing, right?
Carol Parker Walsh:
Yep.
Janine Esbrand:
And then it's really looking at the operations piece, is what I say. If you think about a company that has a product that they deliver or a service that they deliver, you, as an individual, whatever it is that you are doing in your career, whatever your role is, that's your service. You're serving your company or you are serving the end user, which is the clients of the company.
And so paying attention to that, are you committed to mastery around what it is that you do? Are you taking the time to recognize where there are gaps? Because sometimes it is true; if you're going to move from one role to another, or you're going to step up, you may not know everything, and so then there's work that you can do to plug the gaps. There may be knowledge gaps, but rather than say, "Oh, I don't know everything. I can't do it," it's identifying what are the knowledge gaps that I need to focus on so that I feel more confident in what it is I bring to the table and that I am fully equipped to do the role that I have. It's about that balance between I need to be doing the work and making sure that I'm improving on a skillset level, but then I also need to be visible and I need to make sure that I'm telling people about the work that I'm able to do and achieve so that they desire to have me on their team or they desire to hire me.
And so there's that parallel that needs to be happening, it's the work, but you also need to be talking about the work because the work doesn't speak for itself. And I think that is a thing where women often feel like, if I work hard, they'll notice. And it's like, no, you've got to do the hard work, but you also have to do the visibility piece. You need to make sure that people know what it is that you are doing. Make it easy for them. They're not going to do the hard work to, "Oh, is this person..." It's like, no, they expect you to do your work, but not everyone's paying attention to the results that you're getting as you go along, so you need to do that piece.
Carol Parker Walsh:
Yeah, it's like that analogy if a tree falls in the forest and no one's there to hear it, did it really fall? And I always made that analogy. I'm like, "You could have your head down working hard, but if nobody knows or pays attention or you're not out there letting people know and having that visibility," as you said, then, "not that it's for nothing, but it's not enough." It's not enough of that, you need this other piece of the equation, the visibility so that people can actually see the contribution that you're making and understand that. Yeah. Yeah.
Janine Esbrand:
Because if that piece is missing, what ends up happening is resentment builds people. Oftentimes, the reason why people leave is because they felt undervalued or they felt overlooked. And you can blame the organization to an extent, but I think there is a lot of responsibility on the individual to say, "Well, have I done my part to make sure that they see what it is that I'm doing?" Because people get disgruntled. It's like, "Oh, so-and-so got promoted. I've been here for five years, they've been here five minutes." It's like, yeah, but in that five minutes, they've been making a lot of noise and so people notice them, whereas you've been in the corner for five years just working hard. And that's the reality of the situation. And so you have to be strategic about what it is that you're doing and how you're showing up.
Carol Parker Walsh:
Yeah. And even the act of letting people know what you're doing and being visible and showing up is an aspect that leaders love to see. The organizations love to see the tenacity. They love to see the fact that you're interested in what you're doing, that you like what you're doing, doing that you are making a contribution, that you know the contribution you're making because you're letting them know, "Here's how I'm helping the organization goes."
And it's funny, I hear the same conversations. Women are like, "Oh, I can't believe they passed me over for leadership." But I'm like, "Are you showing up as a leader?" And part of taking the reins and driving your career as a CEO is you showing up as a leader, right?
Janine Esbrand:
Yeah.
Carol Parker Walsh:
As opposed to being in the passenger seat and expecting someone to drive you around.
Janine Esbrand:
Yeah. And the more you do it for yourself and you start to think more strategically about where you're trying to get to, the more you are able to do it on behalf of the organization because you start thinking differently and making decisions differently where it's like, I'm not just making a decision in isolation, I'm always in my mind going back to the vision and saying, "Is this actually helping me get towards the vision?" And as a leader in an organization, that's what you do. It's like, we've set the three-year vision, the five-year vision, and decisions that we're making as an organization, as a team, we're making sure that that aligns.
Now if you are an individual who is showing that you understand the company vision and that the things that you are doing is in alignment with that, of course they're going to love you because they're going to be like, "Oh, she gets it. She understands what we're doing. And not everyone is really paying attention to what's being said in those town hall meetings, but she gets it and she's connecting the dots." It's really about exercising that muscle on an individual basis, and then you get to use that corporately within your organization. And it benefits you and it benefits them.
Carol Parker Walsh:
Yeah. Yeah. And it's so hard. I was talking to someone in another podcast episode, and he was just sharing that from his perspective... Because we talked about why is it so hard for women to speak up? Why is it so hard for them to showcase their talents, their accomplishments, their achievements? And he made an interesting point, that women have been, throughout history, penalized for showing up and for talking up or raising their profile, so to speak, which I thought was a really fascinating perspective. I think it's a true one as well.
And so what are some of the ways that you help women? And I know for me, I work with a lot of women at midlife who grew up in a time where girls were supposed to be seen and not heard. I remember even my mother telling me at some point, who grew up in the '40s and '50s, that if I stopped being so smart because I may not find a husband. Because for her, the pinnacle of success for me was to find a husband and have a family. And that was not the path that I wanted to be on. But I'm sure well-meaning parents were trying to help their daughters to be successful. And so I know a lot of women, like I said, at midlife in my age bracket heard those similar messages. This idea of being visible and showing off your achievements is really a mindset shift and a struggle. How do you help women, really, to see that being visible is actually a service and not necessarily an act of arrogance?
Janine Esbrand:
Yeah. Well, the first thing I'd say is that if you are mindful or if you are worried about being arrogant, the likelihood is that you're not arrogant. Because arrogant people don't worry about being arrogant, right? They just are.
Carol Parker Walsh:
A great point.
Janine Esbrand:
They just are. If you're concerned about it, you're humble enough. But it's also thinking about the reason behind why you're doing what you're doing. Oftentimes when women are thinking about climbing the ranks and growing in their careers or shifting to do something else, there's an impact element. Often people will say, "I just want to know that the work that I'm doing is making a difference," or, "I just want to help people." And so their motivation for doing what it is that they want to do or getting to where they want to get to is that they want to do something good. They want to make a difference to other people.
And so if you lead with that, and then you say to yourself, "I'm taking this action. It's not just all about me, and I'm not just trying to be big headed and just speak myself up, but I'm speaking up, I'm sharing, I'm doing these things because I know ultimately it's going to move me towards the vision, and that vision is going to allow me to make impact." It comes back to the vision piece, because when you spend the time really unpacking what you want the vision to be, there is that element of why in there. There is you asking yourself, "Okay, what do I want? Okay, why do I even want that? Let me understand that."
And I do the five why exercise with a lot of my clients when they're first starting out to get them to understand why do I even desire to make this change right now? Why do I desire to do this? And then when the going gets tough and you feel resistance, that's what you can come back to. Know your why. Come back to the why and say, "Okay, I know I feel a kind of way, I feel resistance around showing up, but I also know that if I don't show up, I'm not able to achieve this thing. And if I don't achieve this thing, I don't get to have," whatever it is that they want from that, whether that be for themselves or for other people. I think it's about finding your why and fighting for it versus just being like, "Yeah, I can't. I'm just not going to."
Carol Parker Walsh:
Yeah. That's so good. I totally agree with that. Vision, understanding your why, having a strategy, visibility and operations, it sounds like a sound strategy to be able to really take the reigns and step into being the CEO of your career. I appreciate that. I have one more question for you. For you, what does it mean to be a career rebel?
Janine Esbrand:
To be a career rebel. My podcast is called the Career Change Maker Podcast, and my business is called Career Change Makers. And I feel like there's alignment between being a career change maker and also being a career rebel because it really is about not accepting the status quo, in my opinion. Rather than just being like, "I'm going to do what I'm expected to do, I'm going to do what's always been done," it's you putting a stake in the ground and saying, "No, actually, I've thought about this and this is what I desire to do. This is the impact I desire to make. This is the legacy I want to leave through the work that I do. And so I might be doing something differently to what is expected of me or differently to how people have done it in the past, but I'm okay with that because I want to be someone who's doing something different and that I'm proud of how I've shown up in the world," and not go towards the end of your career and look back and regret that you didn't take action because of fear.
Carol Parker Walsh:
Yeah. Love it. Love it. So fabulous. Janine, where can people reach you and find you? And listen, we are going to have links in the show notes, but how can people... What's the best way people can find you?
Janine Esbrand:
Yeah, the best way is to come over to LinkedIn. If you are committed to your career development in any way, you should be on LinkedIn. Connect with me over there. And yeah, I'd love to chat. If there's anything that you have questions on from what we discussed, feel free to reach out. But that's the best way, Janine Esbrand LinkedIn. And if you want to check out the website, it's careerchangemakers.com, and the podcast is Career Change Maker Podcast.
Carol Parker Walsh:
Love it. Love it. And like I said, we'll have links in the show notes for everybody so you can find that. Janine, this has been such an enlightening and fabulously wonderful conversation, so thank you for joining me today.
Janine Esbrand:
Oh, thank you so much for having me, Carol. It's been awesome. And yeah, I just hope everyone gets something from this conversation. Thank you.
Carol Parker Walsh:
Love it. Well, there you have it, Rebels, another episode of the podcast. So much great insight here that I'm sure you will want to rewind and listen to again and again tips and tools to help you truly take the reins and step into the role of the CEO of your career. In this day and age and the future of work, it's not just a nice thing to do, but it's actually a required thing to do, and that's why we wanted to have this conversation today. Listen to it again. Stay tuned for another amazing episode, and in the interim, have an amazingly rebellious week. And I'll see you soon.
